Defensive pistol rounds

[fj40mojo]

Only one person so far using the classic 230gr weight in their 45?  I'm surprised.  Why shoot the flying ashtray with light bullets?

.230grn Black Talons here. I don't buy into the "cycle 'em out every ____year(s)."

[egress81]

the only time i have cycled them out is when i shoot them at coyotes or other animals that need dispatching.

[agunforeachhand]

I don't buy into the "cycle 'em out every ____year(s)."

+1 good call fj

[sideshowbob]

230 gr hydroshocks in the 45
124 gr hydroshocks in the 9mm
129 gr +p hydroshocks in the 38 and 357
Found them in the 50 round boxes thru CDNN cheaper than the 20 round boxes and bought a few of each
Don't recycle mine but shoot some once in a while to check sight height and POA, test a new shooter, varmints, etc
Like the fact that the boxes are already marked self defense ammo in case of court battles

[KTMNealio]

Only one person so far using the classic 230gr weight in their 45?  I'm surprised.  Why shoot the flying ashtray with light bullets?

Because lighter bullets have more energy, better expansion, and won't kill the innocent people standing behind the person you are shooting.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/45acp.htm

[RGinIdaho]

230gr Ranger T's here.

[NoviceHunter]

Because lighter bullets have more energy, better expansion, and won't kill the innocent people standing behind the person you are shooting.

That doesn't answer my question as to why bother with a .45 if you're going to use light bullets.  If you want velocity or less penetration, there are way easier ways to do it than starting with a .45.

[J Mack]

That doesn't answer my question as to why bother with a .45 if you're going to use light bullets.  If you want velocity or less penetration, there are way easier ways to do it than starting with a .45.

"A 9mm may expand but a .45 will never shrink."

[RGinIdaho]

Because lighter bullets have more energy, better expansion

 

Win 9mm 115gr  1119fps = 320ft lbs energy at the muzzle

Win 230gr  913fp = 426ft lbs energy at the muzzle



Everyone mentions improved bullet designs making the 9mm much more effective. Does anyone ever stop to think that those same "improved" bullet designs are being used in .45 as well. The gap remains...


Remember somewhere in the neighborhood of 80% of all handgun wounds are non fatal...

[romo23]

Win 9mm 115gr  1119fps = 320ft lbs energy at the muzzle

Win 230gr  913fp = 426ft lbs energy at the muzzle



Everyone mentions improved bullet designs making the 9mm much more effective. Does anyone ever stop to think that those same "improved" bullet designs are being used in .45 as well. The gap remains...


Remember somewhere in the neighborhood of 80% of all handgun wounds are non fatal...

320 x 15 = 4800

426 x 8 = 3408

jus sayin...  

the statistics can always look better for any caliber depending on what you want to look at. Personally i carry what i am most accurate with, theres a big difference between small bullet hit and big bullet miss.

[fj40mojo]

320 x 15 = 4800

426 x 8 = 3408

jus sayin...  

the statistics can always look better for any caliber depending on what you want to look at. Personally i carry what i am most accurate with, theres a big difference between small bullet hit and big bullet miss.

426x13=5538 in a compact alloy frame Para Ordnance P12..touche. Hitting is a product of practice, not caliber.

[No-One]

I would carry anything from the lowly .32 ACP on up to the .45 and not be overly concerned about not being armed well enough . You can argue caliber all you want but it really boils down to this ..... The best gun to have in a gun fight , is a gun .

[romo23]

426x13=5538 in a compact alloy frame Para Ordnance P12..touche. Hitting is a product of practice, not caliber.

touche, xdm 20 rounds. 

hitting is practice but you can practice more with cheaper ammo so for my budget 9mm is the best choice, i would carry .45 if i was confident less rounds.

[RGinIdaho]

Why would one ASSUME; small bullet = hit and big bullet = miss

If we are going to go down that road; the key component in accuracy is trigger control hence the formula:

trigger control = dry fire practice = cost neutral 


I'm with No - One. I'll take the 32acp over no gun and work up from there.

We are drifting, the thread was about SD rounds not the caliber/capacity arguement. There was a question relevant to the thread regarding why lighter vs heavier. Then an answer to said question. Hence my comparison disputing the energy and expansion supposition contained in the afore mentioned answer. 


Back on track;
I like the Ranger T stuff because it is a modern HP design with a good track record, consistent(low sd), accurate in my guns, low muzzle flash and a good price when I bought it. I go with the .45 230gr for more energy, more momentum and BIGGER HOLES from the get go. OH, and I CAN HIT WITH IT 

[NoviceHunter]

Loads that passed the FBI protocols with flying colors:
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

That protocol is heavily weighted towards >12" of penetration.  Between that, and the fact that any of my guns might end up out in the woods with me, I guess you can call me a penetration junkie.

Dangit, all this talk of penetration sounds kinda dirty.

[carharttfarmer]

those pics make the 357 sig look like the winner even though i can get more fps out of my 33 than that

[J Mack]

More info on self defense ammo:
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

[RGinIdaho]

Loads that passed the FBI protocols with flying colors:

Bullets and flying colors;

Sounds like a cross post from the whistle pig thread.   

[Grumblecakes]

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

i find this a good read. interestingly it never makes reference to a particular caliber. The conclusions at the end are note worthy as well.

Either way, a hit from a 22lr is still gonna be more effective than a miss with a howitzer

[AR10ER]

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

i find this a good read. interestingly it never makes reference to a particular caliber. The conclusions at the end are note worthy as well.

Either way, a hit from a 22lr is still gonna be more effective than a miss with a howitzer

I beg to differ, a howitzer round doesn't need to hit you, it only needs to be in your general vicinity.

[KTMNealio]

That doesn't answer my question as to why bother with a .45 if you're going to use light bullets.  If you want velocity or less penetration, there are way easier ways to do it than starting with a .45.

Why bother?  Because you can get better combination of energy and expansion from a 185gr .45 ACP +P defensive round than you can in:

9mm
.357 Sig
.357 Mag
10mm
.40 S&W

Show me a round that has better numbers than this:

500 ft-lb of energy
.75" diameter after expansion
100% weight retention (in a published test)

... that I can shoot in a compact auto.  And I'll be heading to the store to get it....


The only reason I would choose something over the .45 ACP +P for a manstopper would be if you need to shoot through heavy clothing, windshields, light cover, etc. In that case I would choose the 10mm.

[Tomac]

I would carry anything from the lowly .32 ACP on up to the .45 and not be overly concerned about not being armed well enough . You can argue caliber all you want but it really boils down to this ..... The best gun to have in a gun fight , is a gun .

This. IMHO all handguns are relatively poor "stoppers" regardless of caliber or bullet. Shot placement & sufficient penetration are paramount, all else is secondary.

W/that being said, I use Fiocchi FMJ in my .32 Tomcat (for sufficient penetration) and Fiocchi 115gr XTP in my new 9mm 'Smith M&P.
Tomac

[carharttfarmer]

Why bother?  Because you can get better combination of energy and expansion from a 185gr .45 ACP +P defensive round than you can in:

9mm
.357 Sig
.357 Mag
10mm
.40 S&W

Show me a round that has better numbers than this:

500 ft-lb of energy
.75" diameter after expansion
100% weight retention (in a published test)

... that I can shoot in a compact auto.  And I'll be heading to the store to get it....


The only reason I would choose something over the .45 ACP +P for a manstopper would be if you need to shoot through heavy clothing, windshields, light cover, etc. In that case I would choose the 10mm.

was playing with a ft lbs. calullater today and a 45 185gr at1000fps is only 411ft lbs

[NoviceHunter]

was playing with a ft lbs. calullater today and a 45 185gr at1000fps is only 411ft lbs

He said +P.  E.g.: http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=64

[carharttfarmer]

Yeah I've never been a fan of anything over 185gr for a pistol round because of over penetration and poor expansion. 
Joey, you should check out the Golden Sabers.  They clocked in at 980fps out of my 3.5" Bersa...

He said +P.  E.g.: http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=64