Defensive pistol rounds

[Nomad]

 What defensive pistol round do you use and why....
 Glaser has been one of my favorite for years, like getting hit
with a shot shell at close quarters. Test results show the damage
with no over penetration does a job when hit in the chest.....

[ID Tactical]

I use PMC Starfire...

[luvmy45]

230gr Golden Sabre... because it feeds reliably, and I have liablity concerns.   

I would like try some Hornady Critical Defense... but I'm too lazy to order any and nobody seems to carry them around here.

Another question, how often do people shoot/cycle their defensive pistol rounds.

[Joey]

45ACP +P 200gn Gold Dots here 

[carharttfarmer]

generally what ever i left in the gun

[Scarecrow]

9mm 147gr Winchester Ranger for the Glock, .38 spl 135gr Gold Dots for the snub, .357 mag 125gr DPX for the 686.

I got the Ranger SXT stuff when I was working at a range and could score 50 round boxes cheaper then most 20 round boxes of other stuff.  The Gold Dots came from a friend who was a snub enthusiast, his recommendation for the short barrel.  The DPX was originally for a hunting area of California that had a lead ammo ban.

I really like Golden Saber (especially the bonded) and Gold Dots - I feel both perform as well as HST/SXT and are more readily available.

About twice a year I'll take a good long look at any ammo I've been carrying, paying special attention to bullet setback.  Anything that looks suspect will get loaded into a mag and get shot at the range.  I don't cycle through entire boxes on any set time schedule - I'm just not that rich.  

On the topic of defensive ammo, I'm going to make an update to the Glaser LCR thread with some pictures and video from a few years ago...

[Nealio]

.45 ACP:
185gr Remington Golder Saber +P
They seemed to have the best expansion, velocity, and mass retention of all the tests I read.  They shoot great and feed great.

9mm:
I think 147gr Winchester Silvertip (been a long time since I bought them and loaded my mags up with them) and some Winchester 115 gr generic hollowpoints
I bought these for home defense, but then I started keeping my .45 in the house.  But I"m back to keeping the 9mm in the house so I should probably upgrade to some Golden Sabers

[Joey]

After reading about the new 45ACP Critical Defense ammo, I may have to look at replacing my Gold Dots?
I've always worried about over penetration issues with my 200gn +P's?

As soon as Impact gets some, I'll give them a go?

Looks interesting though, a 185 @ 1000 fps - MMmnnnnnn?

[Nealio]

Yeah I've never been a fan of anything over 185gr for a pistol round because of over penetration and poor expansion. 
Joey, you should check out the Golden Sabers.  They clocked in at 980fps out of my 3.5" Bersa...

[No-One]

I carry 147 grain Subsonic federal ammunition in my G17 . This was some of the Navy Seal contract over-run stuff that was available for a very short time . I ran into a few case lots a couple years ago and have carried it ever since . I do not cycle out my old ammo on purpose but every once in a while I shoot some at the odd coyote or whistlepig just because its the only weapon handy at the time .

[eddymunster]

45ACP- HST 230gr. and Gold Dot 230gr.

9MM- HST 124gr.+P and Gold Dot 147gr.

 (HST in 9MM when available)

[birddog1989]

Hornady 200 grn, 1050fps, +P .45 acp.  Liked the ballistics testing results Hornady sent out and liked the accuracy and reliability when I shot it.

[ajc281509]

Hornady Critical Defense

90 gr .380 FTX

115 gr 9mm

I try to shoot the 380 every six months or so. The 9mm gets shot whenever I forget it's in that magazine instead of cheap stuff..

[TrooperBrian]

Switched from 147gr Hornady TAP FPD to 115gr Hornady Critical Defense.

[NoviceHunter]

9mm 147gr HST; anything else (in the woods) is heavy hardcast.

[bubba]

I vote for 45 caliber 185 winchester silver tips. 

As was previously stated watch for setback if you rack em often. I have seen lots of 45 defensive ammo set back. I use a kenetic bullet puller then reseat to factory specs.

[birddog1989]

I vote for 45 caliber 185 winchester silver tips. 

As was previously stated watch for setback if you rack em often. I have seen lots of 45 defensive ammo set back. I use a kenetic bullet puller then reseat to factory specs.

Cool idea, never thought of that.  Does the cavity silver tips get peened over after they get racked in a bunch?

[romo23]

115 gr. critical defense.

[tgibson]

16 rounds of 9mm gold dot...because they support the shooting sports.
Adios,
TG

[agunforeachhand]

13 rounds of gold dot in my Glock 23 and  Hornady .357mags in my sp101

[mopeman440]

Old skool here, Federal Hydra-shok +p...thinking of switching to the critical defense.

[egress81]

.45 ACP, 200 grain Hornady XTP +p  both the TAP and the regular line of ammo

.40 cal, 180 grain Remington Golden Saber only because i got about 140 rounds of it for free, but once that is gone i will get the XTP.

[J Mack]

Cor-Bon DPX .45 ACP +P/185 grain because their environmentally friendly

Oh and there pretty when they bloom.



 

[Grumblecakes]

i use speer gold dots. only bought one box. i shot a few of them to get the 'feel' for them. nothing like watching dollar bills eject from your pistol.

not to go off topic but how often should one cycle out defensive rounds? one year?

[NoviceHunter]

Only one person so far using the classic 230gr weight in their 45?  I'm surprised.  Why shoot the flying ashtray with light bullets?

[fj40mojo]

Only one person so far using the classic 230gr weight in their 45?  I'm surprised.  Why shoot the flying ashtray with light bullets?

.230grn Black Talons here. I don't buy into the "cycle 'em out every ____year(s)."

[egress81]

the only time i have cycled them out is when i shoot them at coyotes or other animals that need dispatching.

[agunforeachhand]

I don't buy into the "cycle 'em out every ____year(s)."

+1 good call fj

[sideshowbob]

230 gr hydroshocks in the 45
124 gr hydroshocks in the 9mm
129 gr +p hydroshocks in the 38 and 357
Found them in the 50 round boxes thru CDNN cheaper than the 20 round boxes and bought a few of each
Don't recycle mine but shoot some once in a while to check sight height and POA, test a new shooter, varmints, etc
Like the fact that the boxes are already marked self defense ammo in case of court battles

[Nealio]

Only one person so far using the classic 230gr weight in their 45?  I'm surprised.  Why shoot the flying ashtray with light bullets?

Because lighter bullets have more energy, better expansion, and won't kill the innocent people standing behind the person you are shooting.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/45acp.htm

[RGinIdaho]

230gr Ranger T's here.

[NoviceHunter]

Because lighter bullets have more energy, better expansion, and won't kill the innocent people standing behind the person you are shooting.

That doesn't answer my question as to why bother with a .45 if you're going to use light bullets.  If you want velocity or less penetration, there are way easier ways to do it than starting with a .45.

[J Mack]

That doesn't answer my question as to why bother with a .45 if you're going to use light bullets.  If you want velocity or less penetration, there are way easier ways to do it than starting with a .45.

"A 9mm may expand but a .45 will never shrink."

[RGinIdaho]

Because lighter bullets have more energy, better expansion

 

Win 9mm 115gr  1119fps = 320ft lbs energy at the muzzle

Win 230gr  913fp = 426ft lbs energy at the muzzle



Everyone mentions improved bullet designs making the 9mm much more effective. Does anyone ever stop to think that those same "improved" bullet designs are being used in .45 as well. The gap remains...


Remember somewhere in the neighborhood of 80% of all handgun wounds are non fatal...

[romo23]

Win 9mm 115gr  1119fps = 320ft lbs energy at the muzzle

Win 230gr  913fp = 426ft lbs energy at the muzzle



Everyone mentions improved bullet designs making the 9mm much more effective. Does anyone ever stop to think that those same "improved" bullet designs are being used in .45 as well. The gap remains...


Remember somewhere in the neighborhood of 80% of all handgun wounds are non fatal...

320 x 15 = 4800

426 x 8 = 3408

jus sayin...  

the statistics can always look better for any caliber depending on what you want to look at. Personally i carry what i am most accurate with, theres a big difference between small bullet hit and big bullet miss.

[fj40mojo]

320 x 15 = 4800

426 x 8 = 3408

jus sayin...  

the statistics can always look better for any caliber depending on what you want to look at. Personally i carry what i am most accurate with, theres a big difference between small bullet hit and big bullet miss.

426x13=5538 in a compact alloy frame Para Ordnance P12..touche. Hitting is a product of practice, not caliber.

[No-One]

I would carry anything from the lowly .32 ACP on up to the .45 and not be overly concerned about not being armed well enough . You can argue caliber all you want but it really boils down to this ..... The best gun to have in a gun fight , is a gun .

[romo23]

426x13=5538 in a compact alloy frame Para Ordnance P12..touche. Hitting is a product of practice, not caliber.

touche, xdm 20 rounds. 

hitting is practice but you can practice more with cheaper ammo so for my budget 9mm is the best choice, i would carry .45 if i was confident less rounds.

[RGinIdaho]

Why would one ASSUME; small bullet = hit and big bullet = miss

If we are going to go down that road; the key component in accuracy is trigger control hence the formula:

trigger control = dry fire practice = cost neutral 


I'm with No - One. I'll take the 32acp over no gun and work up from there.

We are drifting, the thread was about SD rounds not the caliber/capacity arguement. There was a question relevant to the thread regarding why lighter vs heavier. Then an answer to said question. Hence my comparison disputing the energy and expansion supposition contained in the afore mentioned answer. 


Back on track;
I like the Ranger T stuff because it is a modern HP design with a good track record, consistent(low sd), accurate in my guns, low muzzle flash and a good price when I bought it. I go with the .45 230gr for more energy, more momentum and BIGGER HOLES from the get go. OH, and I CAN HIT WITH IT 

[NoviceHunter]

Loads that passed the FBI protocols with flying colors:
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

That protocol is heavily weighted towards >12" of penetration.  Between that, and the fact that any of my guns might end up out in the woods with me, I guess you can call me a penetration junkie.

Dangit, all this talk of penetration sounds kinda dirty.

[carharttfarmer]

those pics make the 357 sig look like the winner even though i can get more fps out of my 33 than that

[J Mack]

More info on self defense ammo:
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

[RGinIdaho]

Loads that passed the FBI protocols with flying colors:

Bullets and flying colors;

Sounds like a cross post from the whistle pig thread.   

[Grumblecakes]

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

i find this a good read. interestingly it never makes reference to a particular caliber. The conclusions at the end are note worthy as well.

Either way, a hit from a 22lr is still gonna be more effective than a miss with a howitzer

[AR10ER]

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

i find this a good read. interestingly it never makes reference to a particular caliber. The conclusions at the end are note worthy as well.

Either way, a hit from a 22lr is still gonna be more effective than a miss with a howitzer

I beg to differ, a howitzer round doesn't need to hit you, it only needs to be in your general vicinity.

[Nealio]

That doesn't answer my question as to why bother with a .45 if you're going to use light bullets.  If you want velocity or less penetration, there are way easier ways to do it than starting with a .45.

Why bother?  Because you can get better combination of energy and expansion from a 185gr .45 ACP +P defensive round than you can in:

9mm
.357 Sig
.357 Mag
10mm
.40 S&W

Show me a round that has better numbers than this:

500 ft-lb of energy
.75" diameter after expansion
100% weight retention (in a published test)

... that I can shoot in a compact auto.  And I'll be heading to the store to get it....


The only reason I would choose something over the .45 ACP +P for a manstopper would be if you need to shoot through heavy clothing, windshields, light cover, etc. In that case I would choose the 10mm.

[Tomac]

I would carry anything from the lowly .32 ACP on up to the .45 and not be overly concerned about not being armed well enough . You can argue caliber all you want but it really boils down to this ..... The best gun to have in a gun fight , is a gun .

This. IMHO all handguns are relatively poor "stoppers" regardless of caliber or bullet. Shot placement & sufficient penetration are paramount, all else is secondary.

W/that being said, I use Fiocchi FMJ in my .32 Tomcat (for sufficient penetration) and Fiocchi 115gr XTP in my new 9mm 'Smith M&P.
Tomac

[carharttfarmer]

Why bother?  Because you can get better combination of energy and expansion from a 185gr .45 ACP +P defensive round than you can in:

9mm
.357 Sig
.357 Mag
10mm
.40 S&W

Show me a round that has better numbers than this:

500 ft-lb of energy
.75" diameter after expansion
100% weight retention (in a published test)

... that I can shoot in a compact auto.  And I'll be heading to the store to get it....


The only reason I would choose something over the .45 ACP +P for a manstopper would be if you need to shoot through heavy clothing, windshields, light cover, etc. In that case I would choose the 10mm.

was playing with a ft lbs. calullater today and a 45 185gr at1000fps is only 411ft lbs

[NoviceHunter]

was playing with a ft lbs. calullater today and a 45 185gr at1000fps is only 411ft lbs

He said +P.  E.g.: http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=64

[carharttfarmer]

Yeah I've never been a fan of anything over 185gr for a pistol round because of over penetration and poor expansion. 
Joey, you should check out the Golden Sabers.  They clocked in at 980fps out of my 3.5" Bersa...

He said +P.  E.g.: http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=64

[carharttfarmer]

.45 ACP:
185gr Remington Golder Saber +P
They seemed to have the best expansion, velocity, and mass retention of all the tests I read.  They shoot great and feed great.

thats the plus p i went off of

[NoviceHunter]

I was just clarifying how his numbers did actually add up for what he stated (45 +p).

Personally, I'm a big fan of "over" penetration, so it's not 185's for me unless they're Barnes bullets.

[Nealio]

was playing with a ft lbs. calullater today and a 45 185gr at1000fps is only 411ft lbs

I compare all rounds with the velocities and energies given for a 5" barrel so you can compare apples to apples

[carharttfarmer]

Why bother?  Because you can get better combination of energy and expansion from a 185gr .45 ACP +P defensive round than you can in:

9mm
.357 Sig
.357 Mag
10mm
.40 S&W

Show me a round that has better numbers than this:

500 ft-lb of energy
.75" diameter after expansion
100% weight retention (in a published test)

... that I can shoot in a compact auto.  And I'll be heading to the store to get it....


The only reason I would choose something over the .45 ACP +P for a manstopper would be if you need to shoot through heavy clothing, windshields, light cover, etc. In that case I would choose the 10mm.

357 SIG 125 gr. Ranger 500ft lbs .75 expansion  havent found a published weight retion yet but ill keep looking

[Nealio]

357 SIG 125 gr. Ranger 500ft lbs .75 expansion  havent found a published weight retion yet but ill keep looking

Not bad, got any penetration numbers?

[carharttfarmer]

ill get some looked up when i get out of the tractor
also congrats on the fn slp listed in your sig when u take up 3gun youll be happy with it

[carharttfarmer]

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:xc105UkoUgQJ:le.atk.com/pdf/Butte_WBW_5_27_09.pdf+357+sig+125+gr.+ranger+retained+weight&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us


police text on the sig also some good 40 45 info

[BerettaColtFan]

Another gold dot user

45acp 200 gr. +p Gold Dot

9mm 124 gr +p Gold Dots.

[Shortmag]

147gr. Gold Dots in the G19 - carry
124gr. Hydra-shocks in the PM9 - carry
230gr. Remington HPs in the G21 - Home Defense

SM