Topic: Dog shot in Meridian neighborhood. Self defense?

[9Shooter]

Hard to know for sure at this point.  I have a big dog and it worries me that, although probably rare, this could potentially happen.  I am not worried she would attack someone without provocation but she can be intimidating.  I like having her out in front of my house with me sometimes but if this is ruled as justified because the owner didn't have the dog on leash, I'd have to rethink that.  Obviously I don't begrudge anyone for carrying, and this wouldn't have been a problem if the dog wasn't free to roam.

http://www.ktvb.com/home/Dog-shot-Monday-night-in-Meridian-88980877.html

MERIDIAN -- A Meridian family’s dog was shot dead Monday night and now police are investigating.

Brandi Straley was in her front yard with her two family dogs.

The animals did their usual and urinated at a bush near the sidewalk.

Straley says the says the rest happened quickly after her Queensland Heeler Cowboy, began to bark at a man who was walking by.

She says she immediately called the dogs to return to the house and saw the man had a gun.

“Ran around and was coming back and he shot. Boom. Boom. Shot him. Dead. He made a beeline into our garage and died right there," said Straley.

“I can understand if he ripped some guy's leg off, then he might deserve to die but he didn't deserve to die for barking," said Jackie Sieler.

Sieler is Cowboy's other owner. She never got a chance to say goodbye to her beloved dog.

"If anybody was scared of a dog they probably would have said 'shoo' or you know 'hey' or try to kick him. Nothing. Not a split second for him to pull the gun and kill him with how many people watching. How many people in the line of fire?" said Jackie Sieler.

It's what other neighbors we spoke with were concerned about, too.

"You don't carry a loaded gun in a neighborhood where there's a lot of kids. That's too dangerous," said neighbor Marie Tamas.

Some talked to investigating officers and say their answers did not comfort them.

"The officer told me that there is no risk in firing the gun and I asked him why and  he said because he was pointing it down towards the dog and that's why there was no risk," said neighbor Seth Myer.

“They immediately were posturing in favor of whoever shot the dog saying he has every right to shoot a dog if he feels threatened in self-defense,” he said.

Police are trying to determine if the man who shot the dog is a suspect or a victim.

If he felt threatened and shot in self-defense, the dog's owner could be charged with having a dog at large.

If the shooter is charged, it would be for unlawful discharge of a gun.

Police say they will not release the name of the shooter because they're still investigating.

Cowboy's owners want to press charges and are frustrated police aren't identifying the shooter.

They also say they recognize the man as someone who lives in their neighborhood.

Police tell us this could take about a week to investigate.

[NGO]

Jeff, that is like saying a women needs to have the dick inside her before she can defend herself...


I thought our only critiera was " I feared for my life"  is it now different?

Do we give then first blood then defend ourselves.


Should be interesting to here what comes out from the shooters prospective.

[No-One]

Here is some more information . http://www.idahostatesman.com/2010/03/24/1129074/meridian-police-investigate-shooting.html

[agunforeachhand]

Jeff, that is like saying a women needs to have the dick inside her before she can defend herself...


I thought our only critiera was " I feared for my life"  is it now different?

Do we give then first blood then defend ourselves.


Should be interesting to here what comes out from the shooters prospective.

NGO I agree about the " I feared for my life"

But come on it was a heeler for christ's sake.  If I see a dog is going to bite me , it still doesn't bring the fear for my life clause in IMO. I also think IMO this guy is screwed.

[Bill, Idaho]

Often times, people confuse the laws regarding protecting yourself from another person with the laws regarding protecting yourself from a dog (in this case).  If a dog runs towards me with a head of steam on, and is displaying its teeth in a "I'm going to bite you"  manner, and I can articulate the dogs aggression.... (as long as it is not a 3 pound Taco-Bell dog) I can (and will) let the air out of it.  You do not have to wait until you feel the teeth tearing off your flesh.  The justifiable homicide and self-defense laws pertain to people verses people (and I use that term loosely) NOT people verses animal.  In particular, Pitbull types are documented lately to be the dog of choice for people and the media to focus on.  I  have seen first-hand what a dog can do to a person. And I'm not talking about a couple of bites. I have seen limbs shredded.  On grown adults as well as kids.  
    And as far as charging a guy with unlawful discharge in city limits, most (if not all) cities have an exception to that law if the shot was made to protect yourself from bodily harm (self defense) --the dog. The hard part for the shooter in this case wil be being able to articulate his perceived threat.  
  From what I gather, the guy was walking by as a dog (in its own yard) stood its ground and barked at the guy...... The guy produced a weapon and popped the dog.  If the owner and/or witnesses can prove to a judge the dog was NOT aggressing the guy,  but simply barking ......the shooter might have a hard time articulating why he had to shoot it.  If the shooter can articulate the dog was still coming at him, barking, AND displaying some aggressive behavior, then the shooter might be ok.  If the dog was coming at the guy, and the guy can say (prove) he didn't think the dog was going to stop at the edge of the yard...then maybe the shooter will be ok.   Tough call.

[No-One]

The Idaho Statesman article states that "Blood and ballistics evidence at the scene indicate the dog was in the street when he was shot, according to Meridian Deputy Chief Tracy L. Basterrechea" . Kind of pokes a hole in the ,"It was in its own yard" story but I am gonna withhold judgment until the entire story can be heard .

My grandmother was attacked by a dog recently and I wish she would have had a weapon to defend herself . Instead she got tore up and her Toy Poodle she was holding in her arms trying to protect was killed . Heeler's can be very aggressive and while they may be smaller dogs they are extremely tough .

[NGO]

Thanks  Bill.

We have a guy in our building whose face  is shedded by a dust mutt...you know the kind that could be used a dustmop ...

He was minding his own business on his porch, dog comes running out of nowhere onto his porch....not barking or teeth showing....jumps up the guy body...5'9" guy...and latches onto his face and pulls him down...more like he went down to stop the pulling pain....he has about 150 stitches to show for it....owners where like he never has done anything like that before....they put the dog down.

He looked like a bomb blew his face apart even a week later when he came to work.

[Scarecrow]

I caught this on KIDO this morning.  Like Bill said, it's all down to the shooters ability to articulate his use of force.  With the dog in the street and the owner yelling for the dog to return (per the Statesman Article), I suspect the shooting will be justified. It's a shame there wasn't a less-than-lethal option available.  If the city wants to make a stink about it, they'll still charge the shooter and make him dance a little.

[Nealio]

Some of the comments on this thread are ridiculous:
Some would have me believe that if a dog is coming at my 4 year old daughter I should to sit and wait for it to "rip her leg off" or bite her?  That is idiotic..

A buddy of mine has a Chow and he's always saying the same thing as all dog owners who let their dogs bark and/or act aggressive towards people:  "oh my dog wouldn't hurt anyone"
Sounds just like the excuse anti-gun people use when a perpetrator is shot with a knife or an unloaded gun...... which everyone here seems to think is stupid.
The chow mentioned above ran across the street and attacked some old man's small dog one day (luckily the old man got out of the way or he may have ended up like No-One's grandma) and it also nipped one of this guy's step kids.....  But he's convinced its still a "super nice dog"..

If you have a dog and it has the potential to hurt someone, keep it on a leash.  How many people get attacked by dogs where their owner says "oh yeah my dog loves to attack people and is a menace to society?"     Its almost always the other way around (as I mentioned above).

[agunforeachhand]

Some of the comments on this thread are ridiculous:
Some would have me believe that if a dog is coming at my 4 year old daughter I should to sit and wait for it to "rip her leg off" or bite her?  That is idiotic..

A buddy of mine has a Chow and he's always saying the same thing as all dog owners who let their dogs bark and/or act aggressive towards people:  "oh my dog wouldn't hurt anyone"
Sounds just like the excuse anti-gun people use when a perpetrator is shot with a knife or an unloaded gun...... which everyone here seems to think is stupid.
The chow mentioned above ran across the street and attacked some old man's small dog one day (luckily the old man got out of the way or he may have ended up like No-One's grandma) and it also nipped one of this guy's step kids.....  But he's convinced its still a "super nice dog"..

If you have a dog and it has the potential to hurt someone, keep it on a leash.  How many people get attacked by dogs where their owner says "oh yeah my dog loves to attack people and is a menace to society?"     Its almost always the other way around (as I mentioned above).

Bro my reaction would be alot different if a dog was coming at my 2,4, or 6 yr olds then it would be if the dog is coming at myself. One reason I wear steel toes. I also agree with you, keep your damn dogs leashed period. Or at least in a fenced yard.

[neby98]

My mom was run over by 2 rottweilers, broke her ankle and arm, she would have sued for the medical bills if anyone would have taken the case, but it's hard to sue someone for money they don't have. I wished I would have been there. Regardless I learned how quick things turn ugly. I hope it works out for the best. I tend to be on the shooter's side because I can't recall a time that an owner has said it was my dog's fault. Mostly they have 10 reasons why the people it bit weren't the dog's fault.

[sidaemon]

I'll go on record here, having owned a blue heeler and as a delivery person who works out there with dogs everyday. When I'm out delivering and I come to a yard that has a dog most times I evaluate how friendly and/or aggressive the dog is.

I don't go into ANY yard that has a rottweiler, pitt bull, doberman, or blue heeler, period. I know it seems a stretch to say that I won't go into a yard with a blue heeler, but I can tell you from having owned one for 14 years, and living with another one for 5 years, those dogs are crazy... and damn tough.

The only time I was ever bit by a dog on the job was a blue heeler. I walked up to the fence, talked to the dog, hand fed him a biscuit, scratched his ears, entered the yard, went to the house, knocked, set the package down (with the dog following me the whole time, wagging his tail) and only when I stepped off the porch to return to my truck did he go fur up and attack from the front.

I ended up kicking him a good one and charging the fence to get away with out too much damage, but I learned my lesson. These kind of dogs are bred to take on a much larger opponent fearlessly, and they are unpredictable.

I'm not saying what the guy did here was right, but if you're in the habit of letting your dog run free in your neighborhood (notice I say in your neighborhood and not out on your ranch), you're asking for your dog to get killed; either like this, run over by a car, or put down if, god forbid, something goes wrong and he bites someone. Remember, dogs don't understand the world in the same way we do, and many many people out there don't speak the same language that a dog does and so they don't understand what the animal may be trying to tell them.

I understand this person's pain, but what they were doing was irresponsible as a dog owner. I have a rottweiler shar pei mix (see my profile pic), when I bought my house, he went into the back yard with a six foot high fence and an electic fence charger went in, even though he is a giant wuss that would most likely run if someone said boo to him. But notice I say "would probably" and that means as a responsible dog owner he stays locked down at all times.

Just my 2 cents...

[carharttfarmer]

the one article says  the blood starts in the street  and the guy was walking on a side walk   enough mis information going on here to keep shit talk goiong for ever

[GrayWolf]

What I do to protect myself from dogs when I'm walking is this.  First, I keep a healthy distance if the dog is loose (even in someone's yard).  I'll walk on the other side of the street if need be.  I always carry a pepper spray device on me for just this reason.  I'll carry my .22 pistol or snub nose .38, as the situation warrants.

[neby98]

Now they're saying the shooter was off-duty Ada county Deputy.

[zona5101]

game over.

[WTF]

All dog owners need to control their dog(s) period. if you don't want your dog shot, keep it on a fucking leash. there has been a couple of times in cali, that, if I had a gun, it would've been dead. lucky for me the dogs backed down, and some little girl got to go home that day.

[TylerC]

I'd have to say let the investigators do their job before anyone make's any assumptions. The owner is going to play miss innocent, and the shooter is going to play just cause. Its like every other time I read about someone shooting a dog. The shooter goes "I'm justified", and the owner say's "fifi wouldn't hurt a fly". Then you jump on a board and everyone is up in arms one way or the other. The fact is the dog is dead and the guy shot it. Everything else is hearsay.

[Farlo]

It appears the physical evidence supports the shooter.  The bullets strikes and blood sign were found in the street suggesting the shooter retreated before engaging.  Given the shooter is a deputy, I doubt articulation is going to be an issue.

[Bill, Idaho]

To correct you Fullautolover, it's NOT all the same.   "......dog, person, lion, whatever..."  is NOT the same legally speaking. When applying Idaho law in regards to self-defense, is DOES make a difference if the attacker is a human, as opposed to an animal.  It is much, much more defined by case law as to the amount of force the victim can use to defend themselves (or others, in some cases) against a person than it is against a charging dog.  
  Without getting into the "what-if" game, let's say a guy is running at you in a park. You are sitting there at a picnic table minding your own business when you see a guy running towards you, yelling he is going to hurt you.  That's all he is doing. Nothing is his hands, no machete raised over his head, nothing. Just yelling and running towards you.  He gets within a few yards of you. Can you articulate shooting him at this point?  (Provided you have followed the number one rule to a gunfight!) Doubtful, at very best.  More than likely not.  Legally, he has only commited, up to this point, an assault as defined be Idaho code.  
  Now, let's say you are sitting at that very same park bench, and a dog in running towards you, barking like hell.   It gets within a few yards and doesn't appear to be slowing down. It's still running, and probably showing its gnarly teeth. Can you shoot it?  Well, like I said, the laws for a charging human require numerous criteria to be met before you can shoot, whereas a charging dog doesn't need near the, for want of a better word, -"restraint".
    This particular case seems to me to be a crying poor lady whose dog was maliciously murdered for no valid reason. The media initially portrayed it that way.  It provided enough facts to influence the public into thinking the poor dog was not doing ANYTHING wrong, and for absolutely no reason, ("the dog was ONLY one foot into the street") some guy used a GUN (" people shouldn't be carrying a loaded gun in a neigborhood....")  killed it. They (the media) got what they wanted.  Coverage.

Some people just don't get it. I pull people over for driving 30 (and more) miles an hour over the speed limit, in residential areas, with kids playing everywhere, and write them speeding tickets. Then they get pissed about it and complain "it's a speed trap...". Or a lady is driving down the interstate, texting, while putting on makeup,  unable to stay in her lane, with her kids in the back seat standing up jumping around.
  She gets a ticket for a few things and complains about " she was driving safe..."
This lady just didn't get it. And probably still doesn't.  Maybe a cop should go get her and take her to an ER where they are sewing up a kid's face after a dog got ahold of it.  

[eric.]

Understandably, people really love there dogs.  It's funny how almost every owner thinks their dog would never do that.  When I was a kid there was a pair of rottweilers that kept getting loose in the neighborhood and had everyone scared of them.  Then, at three I was cornered by one with the other on the way.  Fortunately, my brother (16yrs older) is a good shot and dropped the one that had me cornered before it tore into me.  The owner told everyone continually, "my dogs wouldn't hurt anyone." 

[tankermedic]

In Julia Davis Park, I had a boxer charge me at full speed. The dog was growling, baring its teeth and so on. It got with 4 feet of me, all while the useless owner just stood their watching. He didn't even attempt at controlling the dog. I already had my hand in my pocket on the snub nose revolver. I didn't pull it out but I did fear. I now carry a knife with the idea that if I get attacked, I will give the dog my left arm while I stab it with the right.

I love dogs but a lot of owners will never properly train or socialize their dogs. They will never fully understand what a dog can do, they seem to forget where dogs came from. They come from predators that hunted and they still have those traits, no matter how much you try to get rid of those traits, the dog still have them. They are extremely territorial. I hate hiking in the foothills with those damn owners who let their dogs run free with hikers, runners and bikers using those trails. Dogs are as dangerous as weapons

My dad has been bitten by plenty of dogs that people said were nice, friendly and didn't have to worry about. My uncle was attacked by a good friend's Doberman. I am glad that the officer is alright and that another uncontrollable dog is gone. The owner should be fined or charged. Maybe they will get a Chihuahua next time since they are bullet proof due to them being so small of a target. Then all they will have to worry about is the dog being punted into the next area code.

[e11charlie]

Articulation.  He doesnt have to be in fear fro his life.  To use deadly force all one has to articulate is if he was in fear of "bodily injury or harm".  Maybe the guy has fear of dogs. 

[WTF]

Maybe they will get a Chihuahua next time since they are bullet proof due to them being so small of a target.

The perfect Chihuahua Killer...

[ArmedCountryBoy4life]

nice. a litle overkill if you ask me but still nice.