Topic: 1.30.10 3 gun match

[tgibson]

OK.  This is the official thread for this months match.  If you want details on all the rest of the matches, check out the other thread in the "Events" forum here http://www.boiseshooters.com/index.php/topic,8246.0.html
I wanted to start this one so we could discuss specific events that pertained to this match.  I'll have course descriptions and diagrams no later than Thursday night.
I am getting help on one of the stages, but so far here is waht I have for a round count:
Rifle 60
Pistol 49
Shotgun 32
The stage I'm getting help with is going to be a pistol/shotgun stage so I expect those to go up to about 75 for the pistol and 45 for the shotgun....again, just guessing.
There will be two 6" rifle targets at 100y, two 10" rifle targets at 200y, and two full sized silouhetts at 300y.  The targets at 300y will have an 8" center chest hole that will be a 5 second bonus per hit.  I'll explain the rules more at the shooters meeting the day of the match.  Here is a basic breakdown which I will post in the other thread as well:

Long range rifle targets must move/activate to score.  We'll have a spotting scope to call hits.  Failure to hit these targets is a 10 second penalty.
Paper targets must have one "A" or any two hits to be considered neutralized.  One hit that is not an A will be a 5 second penalty.  No hits on a target will be a 10 second penalty. 
Hits on a no shoot target is a 10 second penalty.
Steel targets shot with pistol or shotgun must fall to score.  Failure to do so will result in a 10 second penalty.
Clay targets must have at least one BB hole to be considered a hit.  Failure to do so will result in a 10 second penalty.

As far as equipment goes, here is a quick breakdown on that:

Scoped Tactical division:
Iron sights on pistol and shotgun.  No speed loaders or magazines for shotguns.  Rifle can have one sighting system with glass in it.

Tactical division:
Iron sights on all guns.  No speed loaders or magazines on shotguns.

Open division:
Whatever you want.  .30 cal rifle and smaller.

Let the questions fly!!!
Adios,
TG

[luvmy45]

During the COF how much reloading will be required?

ie... rifle is easy couple of 30 round mags and good to go right?
How about pistol? Need 20 rounds for a single COF?
and Shotgun? 10 to 20 rounds per COF?

Of course all is dependant upon how accurate you are, but in general. Trying to figure out if I want the 9mm with higher cap mags and fewer reloads, or the .45 with I'm more accurate with but need more mags for reloads.

Thanks!

[mopeman440]

So no Saiga 12? No red dots for tactical division, or no magnification?

[luvmy45]

If you have a Saiga, your in Open no matter what your other equipment is.

It's always fun watching the jam-o-matics

[romo23]

so first timer here, again, do we only get that many rounds and we hit targets till we run out of ammo or finish the course, or do we keep shooting till we finish the course (for us less accurate bring more rounds)?

thanks for all the help answering questions!!

[zona5101]

so first timer here, again, do we only get that many rounds and we hit targets till we run out of ammo or finish the course, or do we keep shooting till we finish the course (for us less accurate bring more rounds)?

thanks for all the help answering questions!!

round count is minimum...the course is designed so if you didn't miss you would shoot that number of rounds. So if you are like the rest of us, you'll be shooting more:)
 At some point you may decide the penalty seconds for the miss are less than the time it would take you to hit the target. Its up to you (and sometimes the SO will prod you along and tell you) to skip the target and take the penalty when you're struggling too long one one target task.

[mopeman440]

If you have a Saiga, your in Open no matter what your other equipment is.

It's always fun watching the jam-o-matics

So I'll be a beginner in open class...makes no sense. What jam-o-matic are you talking about? What about the red dots?

[neby98]

Not to badger you guys with questions, but I'm really excited to try this out for the first time. I have a 18inch pump, and a 26inch rem 1100 semi. Which would you folks recommend me using?

[carharttfarmer]

So I'll be a beginner in open class...makes no sense. What jam-o-matic are you talking about? What about the red dots?

once your in open anything goes dots scopes

[mopeman440]

Is a red dot considered a scope? 

[luvmy45]

So I'll be a beginner in open class...makes no sense. What jam-o-matic are you talking about? What about the red dots?

Why does open class make no sense? Not sure I follow you there. 

Red dots are glassed optics.

If you have a saiga that can shoot more than 1 round at a time, it would be good to know what you did to get it to that point. Personally, I haven't seen a reliable saiga that hasn't had to have as much gunsmith work done to it than it cost to begin with run at all.

[zona5101]

IIRC Mope's Saiga ran fine at the patrol shoot. Or if he had problems I didn't notice.

[zona5101]

Not to badger you guys with questions, but I'm really excited to try this out for the first time. I have a 18inch pump, and a 26inch rem 1100 semi. Which would you folks recommend me using?

You would be fine with either...i'd bring the one that holds more in the magazine tube...if they're the same then bring the semi.

[zona5101]

So I'll be a beginner in open class...makes no sense.

so the mag on the shotgun throws you into open class...so be sure and put a scope on your rifle. might as well take as much advantage in the class as possible....put one on the shotgun too if you have one...

[mopeman440]

Why does open class make no sense? Not sure I follow you there.  

Red dots are glassed optics.

If you have a saiga that can shoot more than 1 round at a time, it would be good to know what you did to get it to that point. Personally, I haven't seen a reliable saiga that hasn't had to have as much gunsmith work done to it than it cost to begin with run at all.

It makes no sense because at the NYD shoot there were no classes except for the skill level. It seems to be in the open class a person has been progressing and shooting 3-gun for a while, with all the accessories to go along with it. At the NYD shoot I felt I was outclassed as I was shooting iron sights and didn't so great with the dark targets. To fix this I scrimped, pimped and sold some stuff and got a T-1 at the bargin cave. I thought a magnified scope was for the open class and the 1X red dots were good for the tactical class.

Also, I take it you haven't seen to many sagia's. Mine didn't have too many problems when new, but I fixed them and converted it to pistol grip like the AK's. I have done all the work myself to my sagia and it runs very well. It didn't miss a beat at the last patrol shoot or the NYD shoot either. I have a buddy that got his the same time I got mine and his runs good too.

But so be it, I'm in the open class due to a mag fed shotty.

[luvmy45]

Cool, your the one the working Saiga.. have a couple friends with them... nice single shots

I don't think about the open class as being the advanced class, it does attract the toys on the gun but there are a lot of guys with money that have great equipment, that still can't shoot out there.

NYD event was like it was probably like it was because is was a man on man event, this event is NOT man on man, you only compete as a single individual running the course, and go with the clock. I've seen the best of them get a jam up their guns, hi tech guns run on the edge of not running at times and can fail miserably at times.

All I know is it looks like a lot of fun!!!!

[tgibson]

I don't have a real computer right now but ill answer a.ll of these questions tonight.
Adios
TG

[tgibson]

OK.  This is exactly what I didn't want to happen.  I just want everyone to come out and have a good time.  I guess what I'll do is just run it heads up.  I don't think we are going to have a ton of Open shooters, but the guys shooting scopes are going to have a definate advantage over iron sighted guys.  Oh well I guess.
The only matches that seperate your ability are USPSA 3 gun matches.  All the rest of them match you up against the very best shooters in that division.  There is no seperation whatsoever.  I'll think about this some and see what I come up with.  I'll answer the rest of the questions first though.
Adios,
TG

[tgibson]

During the COF how much reloading will be required?

ie... rifle is easy couple of 30 round mags and good to go right?
How about pistol? Need 20 rounds for a single COF?
and Shotgun? 10 to 20 rounds per COF?

Of course all is dependant upon how accurate you are, but in general. Trying to figure out if I want the 9mm with higher cap mags and fewer reloads, or the .45 with I'm more accurate with but need more mags for reloads.

Thanks!

There will be at least one stage that requires 32 pistol rounds.  I think there is another one that takes 28 or so....I'd bring the XD.
There will be at least one stage that will require you to load shotgun rounds.  I don't think it will be any more than 9 though.
Adios,
TG

[tgibson]

So no Saiga 12? No red dots for tactical division, or no magnification?

From the rules posted above...
Tactical division:
Iron sights on all guns.  No speed loaders or magazines on shotguns.
Glass is considered an optic.  The long and short of it is if you are shooting a Saiga, you are in open division.  If you are shooting a rifle with glass on it, and a standard shotgun, you'd be in Scoped Tactical.
Adios,
TG

[tgibson]

round count is minimum...the course is designed so if you didn't miss you would shoot that number of rounds. So if you are like the rest of us, you'll be shooting more:)
 At some point you may decide the penalty seconds for the miss are less than the time it would take you to hit the target. Its up to you (and sometimes the SO will prod you along and tell you) to skip the target and take the penalty when you're struggling too long one one target task.

what he said...
Adios,
TG

[jordonhurd]

The rules posted above seemed pretty straight forward to me. I think that once everybody gets signed up it will be all good.
I know that I am a little nervous about shooting a new kind of match, but that will go away as soon as shooting starts.
I'll see you all Saturday.
Jordon. 

[tgibson]

The rules posted above seemed pretty straight forward to me. I think that once everybody gets signed up it will be all good.
I know that I am a little nervous about shooting a new kind of match, but that will go away as soon as shooting starts.
I'll see you all Saturday.
Jordon. 

Don't be nervous.  Think of it as a pistol stage followed directly by a shotgun stage, and a rifle stage followed directly by a shotgun stage, and a .....   It'll be fun.
Adios,
TG

[tgibson]

Here are four of the five stages.  Don't worry too much about the notes on them.  We'll discuss it fully during the walk though the morning of the match.
[attachment=1][attachment=2][attachment=3][attachment=4]
Adios,
TG

[tgibson]

I had to post one more time here just so I could see 500 under my name!! 
Adios,
TG

[jordonhurd]

I am so blasting that whirley gig with my shotgun!

[SEVERED]

I wish I didnt have plans I would come out to at least watch and get a better idea how these run. I have been to countless trap shoots but never any thing like this. I guess one of the questions I have is do you have four people shootin at once, i.e. one on each COF or is it one at a time till they are done. I hope to make one of the ones later in the year for sure. (plus it gives me a chance to get a couple more things ready for something like this.)

[luvmy45]

There will be at least one stage that requires 32 pistol rounds.  I think there is another one that takes 28 or so....I'd bring the XD.
There will be at least one stage that will require you to load shotgun rounds.  I don't think it will be any more than 9 though.
Adios,
TG

Ah shucks, the tupperware it is then. I guess it will be an all black day with the guns...

Looks like fun, can't wait to try the 3 gun thing! Thanks for putting this on TG, see you guys out there!!!

[fj40mojo]

I had to post one more time here just so I could see 500 under my name!! 
Adios,
TG

Post whore! Don't take it personal Trav, I'm bitter cuz I won't be there!

[Jeff]

IMHO (am I humble?), the new guys should be there to experience the shoot and have fun.  The class you are in really shouldn't matter (you aren't going to win no matter what class you are in; you really are competing against yourself).  If you decide to pursue 3-gun and want to win then you can adjust your stable to meet the rules. 

And... Travis is a post whore. 

[zona5101]

I wish I didnt have plans I would come out to at least watch and get a better idea how these run. I have been to countless trap shoots but never any thing like this. I guess one of the questions I have is do you have four people shootin at once, i.e. one on each COF or is it one at a time till they are done. I hope to make one of the ones later in the year for sure. (plus it gives me a chance to get a couple more things ready for something like this.)

Only one guy is shooting at a time on a given course of fire.  IF there are enough SOs AND it is safe to do so you may have two guys running separate COFs at the same time to speed the match along.

[zona5101]

Anybody else having trouble opening the word doc for stage 4?
Hey TG looks awesome- it's gonna be FUN!

[luvmy45]

Nope, they all opened for me.

[zona5101]

Nope, they all opened for me.

thanks I was able to open it at work... weird.

[mopeman440]

OK, I thought that this was going to be like the NYD shoot, with the same classes... .  The COF looks fun. So I guess that means I will need mag pouches for the AR mags, since we will be on the move?

[zona5101]

OK, I thought that this was going to be like the NYD shoot, with the same classes... .  The COF looks fun. So I guess that means I will need mag pouches for the AR mags, since we will be on the move?

So unlike the NTD shoot where YOU were classified,  in this game it is YOUR GEAR that gets classified.
On mag pouches: Running 30 round mags there is only one stage where you need to do a mag change...for 2 more rounds!
break down:
Stage #: Rifle-shot-pistol
Stage 1: 12r-0s-0p
Stage 2: 0r-19s-12p or 0r-14s-17p as you can get the texas star with either shot or pistol
Stage 3: 0r-9s-32p
Stage 4: 32r:9s:0p

totals: 44r-38s-49p

[mopeman440]

On mag pouches: Running 30 round mags there is only one stage where you need to do a mag change...for 2 more rounds!

Oh trust me...I will need to do more mag changes than that .

[tgibson]

So unlike the NTD shoot where YOU were classified,  in this game it is YOUR GEAR that gets classified.
On mag pouches: Running 30 round mags there is only one stage where you need to do a mag change...for 2 more rounds!
break down:
Stage #: Rifle-shot-pistol
Stage 1: 12r-0s-0p
Stage 2: 0r-19s-12p or 0r-14s-17p as you can get the texas star with either shot or pistol
Stage 3: 0r-9s-32p
Stage 4: 32r:9s:0p

totals: 44r-38s-49p

Modification to round counts:
Stage 1 - 28 rifle
Stage 5 - 26 pistol 18 shot

and here is stage 5
[attachment=1]

Adios,
TG

[zona5101]

Modification to round counts:
Stage 1 - 28 rifle
Stage 5 - 26 pistol 18 shot

and here is stage 5
[attachment=1]

Adios,
TG

opps, forgot to count the paper hits on stage 1...

[luvmy45]

Gamer Question: Can you stage your equipment anyway you like? ie... reloads on a table and not on the body

Zona: That is so simple how you broke it down, that I didn't even think of it like that. Nicely done.

So, Jeff has 48 rounders, I think ya'll should stop and get some so you don't have to reload. 

http://www.sawtac.com/component/page,shop.product_details/flypage,shop.flypage/product_id,285/category_id,27/manufacturer_id,0/option,com_virtuemart/Itemid,30/

[jordonhurd]

So unlike the NTD shoot where YOU were classified,  in this game it is YOUR GEAR that gets classified.
On mag pouches: Running 30 round mags there is only one stage where you need to do a mag change...for 2 more rounds!
break down:
Stage #: Rifle-shot-pistol
Stage 1: 12r-0s-0p
Stage 2: 0r-19s-12p or 0r-14s-17p as you can get the texas star with either shot or pistol
Stage 3: 0r-9s-32p
Stage 4: 32r:9s:0p

totals: 44r-38s-49p

I will need slightly more ammo than that.

[shooter jim 45]

TG,

Looks like it is going to be fun!! Is the 5th stage a blind stage?

[luvmy45]

Nope, just go up about 4 posts 

[shooter jim 45]

sorry for the last post did not see stage 5 COF

[tgibson]

Gamer Question: Can you stage your equipment anyway you like? ie... reloads on a table and not on the body

Zona: That is so simple how you broke it down, that I didn't even think of it like that. Nicely done.

So, Jeff has 48 rounders, I think ya'll should stop and get some so you don't have to reload. 

http://www.sawtac.com/component/page,shop.product_details/flypage,shop.flypage/product_id,285/category_id,27/manufacturer_id,0/option,com_virtuemart/Itemid,30/

We'll have to look at the COF's on Saturday, but I'd say probably so.
Adios,
TG

[tgibson]

I will need slightly more ammo than that.

You and me both brother!!  I think it will be fun though.
Adios,
TG

[romo23]

i went out today and practiced reloads with my ar and glock, two fingers got jammed and i realized i suck so im gonna rock 33 round glock mags lol ok maybe not.... but i should 

also im not sure if this is possible ive never been to the parma range and dont know if all the lanes are used up but if we can could someone help me sight in my ar? i tried today but offhand doesnt work so well as we all know?  thanks!!

[luvmy45]

Depending on what pits we use the rifle range may be open.

We have gongs at 100m on out to 500m if nothing else you can get minute of man, which should put you on the steel.

There are target stands as well for putting paper up, but that depends on how much time you would have if they are open.

It's all good! Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

[tgibson]

This is another bump for the match tomorrow.  I think I have pnemonia, but we are going to have the match come hell or high water. 
I don't think the rain is going to come until late in the afternoon, so we should be in good shape there.  If you are thinking about coming out, but haven't decided yet, you should.  This is going to be a lot of fun.
We are going to be using the covered rifle range for the long range stage with targets out to about 330y.  We'll be using the new pistol pits for stage two.  Stages three and four will be in the pit just to the left of the 100y connex pit, and stage 5 will be in the connex pit.

I know we are going to have a bunch of new shooters.  If you are a new shooter and have questions, I'll try to answer as many of them as I can before the match starts.  Showing up early to help with set up will increase your chances of getting all your questions answered 

Adios,
TG

[zona5101]

You can gain a tactical advantage by showing up early to set up.

TG confirm the times:
Set up at 08:00
Sign up at 09:45
Shooting at 10:00

[tgibson]

You can gain a tactical advantage by showing up early to set up.

TG confirm the times:
Set up at 08:00
Sign up at 09:45
Shooting at 10:00

That is true!  You'll get to see the stages up close and in person.  Times above are correct.  I'll actually be there around 07:30 along with a couple of other guys that said they were showing up early.  Hope to be doing walk throughs by 10:00.
Adios,
TG

[luvmy45]

I'll be there around 7:30 as well to help... I need to get home as soon as the match is over so I can pack up for a business trip, but I'll help as much as I can for setup.

Hope your feeling better tomorrow.

[jordonhurd]

Is there a limit on the number of rounds in the handgun, or is it fill it with all it holds?

[zona5101]

In most matches there will not be a limit on the number of rounds but a limit on the length. I do not know if TG will be doing any of that but I suspect things like the 33 round glock mags will be verboten.

[jordonhurd]

In most matches there will not be a limit on the number of rounds but a limit on the length. I do not know if TG will be doing any of that but I suspect things like the 33 round glock mags will be verboten.

I was just wondering if I had to stop at 10 or if I could put 16 in the magazine. Do they make a 33 rounder for xd?

[tgibson]

Load up the mags with as much as they'll hold.  33 rounders will put you in open class.  Anything else (factory) will be just fine.
Adios
TG

[luvmy45]

You can get +extensions for the xd mags...

I think I see 33round mags in glocks at the Iron Man Videos...

I've been playing with the idea of getting a couple of base pad extensions for the XDm, that would give me 29 in the gun. Whoa that would be rockin!  

[tgibson]

I hope to be done before 15:00.  If everyone works hard and we don't lolliegag too much I could see us being done before 13:00. 
Adios
TG

[neby98]

Well Romo and I will see you fellas in the morning.

[egress81]

for the scoped tactical division, i see that shotguns are not allowed speed loaders or magazines, but is there a limit to how many rounds are allowed or is it to full capacity?
 

[luvmy45]

Load it to full capacity, mine's 8+1... and my speedloader is my thumb! 

At least that's how I was practicing it tonigh

See you there in the morning!

[egress81]

sweet i was just looking over the cof that TG put up and was thinking about when i was gonna have to reload and which ones to shoot first... damn this is gonna be fun, and i havent even shot yet. 

[luvmy45]

Tell me about it, I've been running around the house, jammin shells in the gun and aiming... got the AR out and working on reloads, and to top it off... i'm sitting here studying the COF maping out my reloads and plan.

Yeah, I'm a geek.

[egress81]

glad im not the only one running about the house practicing... the dog has been staring at me for quite some time trying to figure out what the heck is going on 

[jordonhurd]

That was a great match! Many thanks to Travis Gibson. I had a great time and I am looking forward to the next 3 gun match, after I practice reloading the shot gun a lot and shooting the AR at 300 yards.

[romo23]

That was a great match! Many thanks to Travis Gibson. I had a great time and I am looking forward to the next 3 gun match, after I practice reloading the shot gun a lot and shooting the AR at 300 yards.

agreed, thanks again travis it was very fun for me as a first timer.

[jordonhurd]

agreed, thanks again travis it was very fun for me as a first timer.

It was even more fun for me after I got away from the long range rifle stage. That kicked my ass!

[tgibson]

Here are the scores for the match today.  I would like to thank everyone who showed up early to help set up and stayed late to tear down.  You guys took a huge load off of me and I can't tell you how much I appreciate it.
I'd also like to thank Robert Krone at RK Gunsmithing who donated some goodies.  Make sure you look him up next time you are getting ready to buy a new gun, or piece of kit, have a gun worked on, or need some spare parts.  SUPPORT THE PEOPLE THAT SUPPORT THE SPORT!!!  Prizes were given away to:
High Lady
High Jr.
High First time shooter
If you won one of these and didn't get a prize, it is because you weren't there for the awards.  Sorry.
A big thanks out to Aaron, Neill, Travis F, and Bruce B. with the Parma Rod and Gun club who helped me get this past the BOD and put on the schedule WAY faster than usual.
Last but not least, I'd like to thank Mike Gibson for letting us use all of his gear for the match.  Without him, this would have not been nearly as easy.  I'd also like to thank him for letting me spend some of my work hours putting this together.  When you tell me thanks for supporting and helping grow the shooting sports, it should really be going to Mike. 
I hope you all had a great time, and I look forward to having you all back next time...and remember...you can practice the pistol portion of your 3 gun match just about every week in the valley.  Let me know if you need more details.
Adios,
TG
[attachment=1]

[carharttfarmer]

great day of shooting  big thanks to travis and mike and th parma members that got it going
if any body gets a chance could ya pm were i finished cody scheihing  cant download the results to my phone and wont get back to the pc for awhile thanks

[tgibson]

5th overall...4th Scoped Tactical.
Adios,
TG

[tgibson]

try this..
Travis Gibson   ST   280.04
Kelly Beale   Open   285.46
Aaron Goodfellow   ST   334.41
Mark Anglin   ST   355.22
Cody Sheining   ST-NS   379.13
Jim Sullivan   ST   410.35
Mike Gibson   Open   413.47
Raul Garcia   ST   430.79
Brian Kohagen   ST   471.93
Lyle Beale   Open   519.75
John Hart   Limited-NS   542.04
Chuck Galloway   ST-NS   550.84
Daniel Garcia-NS   ST   559.35
Craig Hixson   ST-NS   570.73
Evans Kuo   ST-NS   574.45
Greg Kyser   ST   593.50
Jim Hicks   ST   598.87
Hayden Hixson   ST-NS   599.49
Ralph Gareninger   ST   638.79
Russel Balfour   ST-NS   641.41
Travis Johnson   ST-NS   648.20
RJ Love   ST-NS   654.16
Jim Love   ST   670.62
Gavin Parsons   ST-NS   677.48
Ben Mosley   Limited-NS   702.08
Bruce Bates   ST   714.38
Mitch Osterhodt   ST-NS   745.75
Jan Anglin   ST   762.23
Greg Knights   ST-NS   778.03
Jordon Hurd   ST-NS   778.77
Zach Barker   Limited-NS   797.68
Cory Feldman   ST-NS   823.84
Joshua Long   ST-NS   831.57
Matt Richmond   ST-NS   857.01
DuWaine Emmon   ST   867.44
Dallin Hixson   ST-NS   900.67
Forrest Odgers   ST-NS   952.55
Nicole Odgers   ST-NS   1002.22
Andy Barnes   ST-NS   1018.27

[neby98]

Thanks for pulling this on. I'm hooked for sure. Now I need to save some money and get some of that slick gear.

[carharttfarmer]

thanks travis suprised i was that high up thought maybe top 10

[egress81]

Thanks again that was a really good time, i am hooked now.