Topic: PRGC CQB Qual Class

[luckypunk]

Helluva title if you aren't into acronyms

10/27 Parma/ Larry webster is putting on a qualifier class to the spring 3-day CQB class.  500 rifle/100 pistol $25 fee along with 10, $1 bills for an event of some kind.  anyone else going...I think Spiff is, I lucked out and can go now.  it starts at 8 am till 6pm, then the IDPA "night shoot" starts.  should make for a long day of blasting.   

It is all detailed on the Parma listserve, but that site is a pain in the ass to filter through to find it.  I really wish they would have a proper website...like this one.....maybe the webmaster that developed this site should talk to Aaron G.for a side job...I'm just sayin'


...and congrats to Fidel for passing the physical exam to a certain job opportunity He has in the works, (I don't want to give too much & blow OPSEC)

[Orbital-Burn]

OMG, Fidel is gonna be a copper too?

[ScotchBoy]

Hmmm, can't seem to find any more info on the course or the instructor, maybe my web-fu is weak tonight.  LP, you got any more info you can point me to about the quality of the CQB course or maybe info on Webster?  The class sounds interesting...

[luckypunk]

As for who Larry Webster is, I'm not sure of his resume.  But I presume he has trained with/or is a MIL/LEO swamp-ninja...hopefully not a Rex quan do type.

cut n paste from the listserve:

Fellow shooter,
 
The qual class will be used to bring all participants to a level where we can learn the topics of the April class. I want us to learn as much as possible, an opportunity like this doesn't come by that often.
 
During the qual class I will show you the ready and carry positions we will use.
I will discuss and you will have to pass of weapons conditions. All participants will need to be able to place all shots in a 6" circle at 50 yards, no limitations on optics. Keep in mind speed can be a factor.
Magnification could be a problem. We will also demonstrate different types of reloads, speed, tactical, and one handed. We will sling and unsling, strong and support side. We will also shoot from both strong and support sides. We will also work on pivots, pivots to move, multiple target engagement, and then a few things we have done for years with our pistols, such as hammers, controlled pairs, and failure to stop.
I will also show you no less than 6 ways to transition from your primary to your secondary.
I would like us to be proficient with the above topics so we are ready to move ahead when its time for class.
 
During the class we will teach some of the following;
Types of entry, button hook, cross, straight, and limited penetration.
Entry on a closed and open door, and riding the door to the wall.
1 and 2 man room clearing.
Hall clearing, straight halls, L-shpaed and T shaped halls.
Short stock weapons engagement.
Pieing methods, clearing windows, and pieing while taking a corner by your self.
You will learn foot placement, knee placement, popping, and limited exposure.
You will also learn what running the rabbit is
 
These are a few of the topics that will be taught.
 
Two certificates will be offered, if you qualify you will receive a certificate of training, if you don't you will receive a certificate of achievement. The quallification will be how you handle yourself in class, but mostly how you excecute the shooting portion, X number of shots will be fired from the different positions, they will be timed and from different distances. You must be 80% accurate to pass. Its not as hard as it sounds.
 
Once again the class will run for 3 days, you will need no less than 1000 rifle rounds, 100 pistol rounds, and the cost is $200.00.
 
I will in the next 2 weeks have the day set for our quall course, It will cost only $25.00. And it will last all day. If need be I will run it for 2 days and it still won't cost more than $25.00
 
We are limiting the class to 20 people. To take the class everyone must take the quall class. If needed I will work with you until you do qualify to take the class.
 
As more information becomes available or should it change I will keep you posted.
 
Train hard or don't train at all.....................
Larry
 
 BOW TO YOUR SENSEI!!!!

[Spiff]

RG and myself are also going. I think there are about 13 or 14 people so far all totaled. This qualifier is actually supposed to be for people taking a spring CQB class put on by an Army SF instructor. Larry is using this as a "weeding out" process to make sure that those taking the spring class have a least some abilities. The spring class is $200 at least that is what I heard.

[Spiff]

OMG, Fidel is gonna be a copper too?

Damn OB, way to blow OPSEC.....

[Orbital-Burn]

pretty soon I wont be able to even say fuck anymore because Fidel and Farlo will be whipping out their ticket books to fill their quotas.

[luckypunk]

Spiff or RG

Larry Webster has released an equipment list, once again they are not D/L-able on my puter, could you post it here or Email me directly?

Also- He has stated that he will accept forms the day of class so if there is open spots (email Larry) others (you know who you are) should attend

[Spiff]

LP, I just emailed it to you. I think it's the same one he emailed earlier. He has added that we should bring a shooting mat if we have one. I'll have to run down to Impact and get me one. Wouldn't want to get dirty.......

[luckypunk]

Thanks, I never got an equip. list on the last email. 

[Spiff]

Or you could go to WalMart and get an excercise mat for a lot less cash.

Yeah.......

But the one at Impact has cool little tie-down thingys...........and other tacticool stuff.......................

[Spiff]

So are you guys going to take your reloads out there? I hate losing ~ 300 .223 cases so I think I'm going to buy some Wolf ammo and shoot that. Going to run out after work tonight and make sure my rifle is zeroed at 50 with it.

[luckypunk]

When & where you going, I'd like to tag along

[Spiff]

When & where you going, I'd like to tag along

I already ran out and shot LP. I did not catch your post in time and I left right after work. I stopped where we used to shoot (by the dead cow!!) and shot 60 rounds down range. The Wolf shot well and so did I for the most part. Unless I get a bad case of the nerves I'm pretty sure that I can keep them inside 6 inches at 100. Kneeling and prone, I was shooting about 2 inches lower than when I shot off the bench.

RG and LP are you going to be at pizza tomorrow night?

[luckypunk]

I'll be there if I don't get calls

[luckypunk]

AAR:
The class was rudimentary (at best)  we're talking coming from the rifle slung over shoulder (like you are out hunting) to.......are you ready for this?............ 6 different ways of "ready" and another 6 of "prone"  absolutely NO CQB RELATED INSTRUCTION!!!!WTFBBQSAUCE?

The only gem I was able to cull from the Fail-laden class was how to unload a mag with LULA-like efficiency with just a bullet.


I know I should take it easy on the Instructor for teaching to the weak link, but next time....needs more cowbell!!

Afterwards the IDPA night shoot was fantastic.  Activators, Steel and Room clearing in the dark.    more CQB that the previous Class!

 shotgun slugs on steel plate @ 40 yards makes a mini firework with 4' sparks  Much enjoyment.

It made for a long day.  I got home @2am.  Thanks to RG for the driving and spiff for............... not embarrassing us

[Spiff]

Thanks to RG for the driving and spiff for............... not embarrassing us

I made it my mission in life not to embarrass you guys at the night shoot. I plan on making more of the IDPA shoots. All the Parma guys were damn cool and it was nice to put faces to the names I've been seeing on the parma list-serv for almost two years!! My scores weren't to bad for my first real IDPA shoot, and a hand held night shoot at that (I should have practiced). Aaron Goodfellows house clearing stage was frick'in excellent, most fun I've had shooting in sometime. Even with Neil yelling in my ear!!

As far as the qualifier was concerned I kind of agree with LP. I think the instructor really did tactical slings a disservice. Most of the pistol transitions that we went through would not have been needed with a tac sling.

Scenario using tac sling: AR out of action? Just let go of it, let the sling hold it, and go to pistol.

Scenario using an old style sling for the shoulder: AR out of action? Think of any one of 6 different, awkward ways of maintaining control of your AR and then go to pistol (awkwardly of course cause your holding on to your rifle to).

But the course was good trigger time and I have fun nonetheless (Unloading a mag with a bullet and loading one handed were cool). And all three of us qualified (RG had to have cheated to get the high score among the three of us.....).

Can't wait for the Patrol Shoot in two weeks!!

[luckypunk]

   This is what I got for the scores but I don't think it includes the shotgun

Home             Full Match Results

       Name       Match Score        Target Points Down            Division/Class 
     1       Wirth, Michael         171.88              23        SSP/Expert
     2       Goodfellow, Aaron         201.26              31        ESP/Expert
     3       Goodfellow, Neill         217.06              58        CDP/Expert
     4       Mettler, Lyle         241.39              87        SSP/Sharpshooter
     5       Brown, Eric         246.30              71        SSP/Sharpshooter
     6       Burch, Jeff         251.48              69        SSP/Marksman
     7       Clarke, Andrew         253.85              33        ESP/Marksman
     8       Bates, Bruce         256.74              89        CDP/Sharpshooter
     9       Grossl, Jim         264.79              64        SSP/Unclassified
    10       Aldrich, Terry         278.99              44        CDP/Marksman
    11       Grieninger, Ralph         282.55              69        CDP/Marksman
    12       Reed, Ken         283.93              62        CDP/Sharpshooter
    13       Kurpjuweit, AJ         307.62              83        CDP/Marksman
    14       Clarke, Evan         307.70              93        SSP/Marksman
    15       Clarke, Mike         311.79              69        SSP/Marksman
    16       Groon, Tim         319.69              87        CDP/Marksman
    17       Kemmerle, John         320.03              65        CDP/Sharpshooter
    18       Mink, Rocky         352.73             112        ESP/Marksman
    19       Barnes, Jim         354.74              64        SSP/Marksman
    20       Barnes, Beth         565.93             174        SSP/Novice

[luckypunk]

err, nevermind, I think Spiff was referring to the CQB class scores. 


wait!  these soldiers obviously have not been to CQB training, they are holding their rifles in front of them like they expect action or something!?!?

[Spiff]

I thought you might have felt sorry for me and shot a few extra rounds onto my target to make up for my misses. A few extra rounds would boost my score?   

Just trying to help!!

Did either Spiff or LP loose a black, nylon flap or tie down of some sort? I found what appears to be a retention strap or something. It is about 7" of black nylon with velcro on the narrow end and a snap on the other end.

I think that strap is one of my pistol mag flaps. I've never used them and always leave them in my shooting bag.

[Spiff]

wait!  these soldiers obviously have not been to CQB training, they are holding their rifles in front of them like they expect action or something!?!?

It's hard to see what kind of sling they are using, if any. The soldier in the foreground is using the depressed ready (or sul) hold though, and it dosen't really look like he's using a sling. The soldier with the shotgun looks like he has an old style sling!!

Damn, could Larry be right?

[luckypunk]

Here's better picts. to relay my frustrations with the qual-class. 
I googled "us soldier" and get these.  You will notice they have the rifle slung forward. 

http://www.dsto.defence.gov.au/gallery/1259/soldiers.jpg
http://a.abcnews.com/images/International/ap_iraq_soldiers2_070525_ms.jpg
http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2005/11/16/1611webstory_iraq.jpg
http://msnbcmedia3.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/060623/060623_iraqMain_hmed_2p.hmedium.jpg

I know, I know "beating a dead horse" but He spent a lot of time wasting our time.
 
Fun CQB quiz

[Spiff]

I know, I know "beating a dead horse" but He spent a lot of time wasting our time.

Maybe, but I do agree with you. Like I said before, I think he did not give the tac sling a fair shake.

However in his defense, I've seen allot of the actual shooting positions he showed us in CQB training DVD's I've watched. Yeagers "Fighting Rifle" has quite a few. Yeager shows most of the ready positions we learned, along with some of the side prone positions as well as the laying on your back and shooting through your crossed legs position. Also remember that in a life and death situation, you may lose your rifle because of malfunction, etc, and have to use someone else rifle and it may not have a tac sling. So knowing other ways of transitioning from your rifle to your pistol if not using a tac sling might be beneficial.

Like I told Neil Goodfellow at dinner, my biggest complaint is that I think there was way to much info for one day. We should have been able to do allot more shooting with the various positions (and transitions) than we had time for. Then again, it did only cost $25!!

BTW, missed two on the quiz, number 1 (I put down 8-10 meters) and number 3 (I put down "speed").

[Nomad]

 Larry puts on some great classes and knows what he is doing.

[EDGE]

I think you guys misunderstood what this class was supposed to be.  It was a "qual" class, not the actual CQB class.  This class was to get you ready for the CQB class and to help Larry figure out whether you are safe and competent enough to take the actual CQB class.

Knowing Larry for as long as I have, he is an excellent trainer and safety is his utmost priority.  I'm sure he focussed on the standard AR sling, because that is the sling that the Marines are issued with their rifles.  As for the positions of carry, I'm sure that they will all be important in one way or another once the CQB class comes along.  The shooting positions were excellent refreshers for me.  I have used most of those positions in one form or another in my competition shooting. 

Like he said, he's not going to tell you which sling or method is best.  That's for you to decide.  Personally from all the Patrol shoots that I've shot over the years, the regular old strap sling seemed to work the best.  Maybe that's why I have a Mamba 3 point sling on my rifle now.