Author Topic: OC day posted on OC.org forum..  (Read 1332 times)

Offline Cmiller

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Offline Jeff

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Re: OC day posted on OC.org forum..
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2009, 07:42:45 PM »
Press release?  Invite the media?  These guys never seem to learn.
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Offline WTF

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Re: OC day posted on OC.org forum..
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2009, 08:46:40 PM »
Press release?  Invite the media?  These guys never seem to learn.

whats to learn? seems more like the public has more to learn than anything.
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Offline Jeff

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Re: OC day posted on OC.org forum..
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2009, 09:01:26 PM »
One more time for the slow people.  ;)

Of course the public needs to learn but you are making the media the teachers.  Not you.

The press is not your friend.  You are almost always going to lose if you bring the press in.  Present them with a report after the fact.

Don't send a press release.  Send a notification to the location and law enforcement so they know what's happening and don't get freaked out.

These press events never seem to do anything positive for your cause.
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Offline WTF

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Re: OC day posted on OC.org forum..
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2009, 09:53:20 PM »
ah ok, gotcha..makes sense about the press release.
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Offline Jeff

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Re: OC day posted on OC.org forum..
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2009, 10:05:33 PM »
Just so it's clear.  I fully support our right to open carry.  Whether or not I think it's a good idea.

I just think the approach that is being used will not accomplish the goal.  I think it will hurt things as they stand now.  Because of that I can't support these efforts.
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Offline NGO

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Re: OC day posted on OC.org forum..
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2009, 10:53:14 PM »
It is time to go gray folks.

Visablility to a wide group is no longer advisable.

Things are going to get worse before they get better.

Offline John Wolver

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Re: OC day posted on OC.org forum..
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2009, 04:01:19 AM »
Unfortunately, the problem is, if you do not have the press, you can not win the public.  Hiding is not the way to go about things, burying your head in the sand, for better, worse, or just "waiting" is not the way.  You have to make a stand.  Be seen, be heard, be peaceful.  Prove our way is the better way.  Otherwise we will contingue to be walked on and pushed to the side.  So, I support this event, and support the press being invited.  It works in other parts of the country, it will work here.  Plus we have it easy, it is already legal here.

Offline Jeff

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Re: OC day posted on OC.org forum..
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2009, 11:23:11 AM »
Well, your strategy may work but it certainly can't be the best way.  Your last zoo event has to be considered a net loss.  As a gun owner I don't appreciate the negative press your events generate.
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Re: OC day posted on OC.org forum..
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2009, 12:13:50 PM »
As Marilyn Monroe's press agent said, "Bad press is still good press as it keeps your name in the news."

The press just is - I support all things related to weapons and include the OCer's as well. Each of us plays a part in letting the public know what their rights are.


Offline John Wolver

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Re: OC day posted on OC.org forum..
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2009, 04:28:37 PM »
Jeff your reasoning is flawed in my opinion.  The zoo event, which I was not involved in unfortunately, went off well from what I could find.  The news showed up, the OC-er's were polite, proved their point, were admitted, no animals were harmed that day and your rights, and everyone else's right to carry (the law) was promoted on T.V. So lots of people who didnt know it was legal do now, and those who didnt know its legal, decreasing the rift in the community towards open carrying/carriers.  So otherwise A Perfect success.

What negative press do you talk about?  No one was accosted or shot.  So what was negative that happened.

Offline Jeff

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Re: OC day posted on OC.org forum..
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2009, 04:44:25 PM »
I'm not getting into this again. If you feel this approach is the best way to accomplish your goal then by all means support it. I don't and I won't. 
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Offline Cmiller

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Re: OC day posted on OC.org forum..
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2009, 05:12:44 PM »
Jeff your reasoning is flawed in my opinion.  The zoo event, which I was not involved in unfortunately, went off well from what I could find.  The news showed up, the OC-er's were polite, proved their point, were admitted, no animals were harmed that day and your rights, and everyone else's right to carry (the law) was promoted on T.V. So lots of people who didnt know it was legal do now, and those who didnt know its legal, decreasing the rift in the community towards open carrying/carriers.  So otherwise A Perfect success.

What negative press do you talk about?  No one was accosted or shot.  So what was negative that happened.

The only negative I remember from the news clip was that family from out of state.. They were very put off by the OCers... but overall I remember it being pretty neutral in terms of what was aired.

Offline John Wolver

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Re: OC day posted on OC.org forum..
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2009, 05:17:39 PM »
exactly some people from out of state, from a state, WI i believe where they are currently fighting for their rights to carr and not be harrassed.

Offline MarkinIdaho

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Re: OC day posted on OC.org forum..
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2009, 08:10:25 PM »
The problem was there didn't seem to be a central spokesman for the event, so the message delivered was not necessarily consistent. Then there was a disasterous radio interview with an OC woman that should never have been given a microphone. She did more harm than good if I remember correctly. someone posted the audio on here... maybe it is still around.

Offline luvmy45

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Re: OC day posted on OC.org forum..
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2009, 08:48:36 PM »
Walking around with a gun strapped to your hip with a bunch of other people with guns strapped to their hips is pretty pointless way to make a point, if that is all you are going to do.

The best OC I remember was in San Diego of all places, where the OC crowd organized a gathering, had PRINTED material about legal OC and handed it out to people. They not only made their point about OC, but they also educated the people that they came in contact with in the public, and the media.

Otherwise your just a bunch of people with guns strapped to your hip looking for a crowd to gather, and IMHO looking for a fight with someone that challenges your legality so you can prove them wrong. Again that's just my opinion, and I may be wrong. In fact, I'd be rather happy to be wrong, but from the OC forum that I've read... I'm not so sure.

If your going to do a OC gathering, have a purpose and actually accomplish the goal of educating by having literature to hand out to people not just talk with people that are brave enough to talk with you. Most of the people that see a OC are going to turn and go the other way, and then what point have you made? None... except that there is a group of people down there that we had better avoid because they have guns.

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Offline John Wolver

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Re: OC day posted on OC.org forum..
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2009, 09:19:31 PM »
Your right Brian, so would you like to help us set this up for the biggest positive impact?  I challenge everyone and anyone to help.  WE (myself and one other) are the only ones doing anything to set this up.  We have information we are printing out, but if anyone wants to help, i will email a page, front and back legal pamphlet for Idaho to you so you can print some out and bring them for handing out.  We are also planning on cleaning up the place somewhat, so we have a positive impact.  As for a spokesman, we will have one.  As for the oc woman, please let me know where that radio link is, so i can listen to it.  We (all of us) want this to be a good event, so all the help possible would be great.  It is also being attempted to make this a free hotdog/hamburger day to attract people and talk to them and educate them.  So if anyone is interested in helping, let me know, it will be welcome.

Offline TrooperBrian

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Re: OC day posted on OC.org forum..
« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2009, 09:27:04 PM »
Jeff your reasoning is flawed in my opinion.  The zoo event, which I was not involved in unfortunately, went off well from what I could find.  The news showed up, the OC-er's were polite, proved their point, were admitted, no animals were harmed that day and your rights, and everyone else's right to carry (the law) was promoted on T.V. So lots of people who didnt know it was legal do now, and those who didnt know its legal, decreasing the rift in the community towards open carrying/carriers.  So otherwise A Perfect success.

What negative press do you talk about?  No one was accosted or shot.  So what was negative that happened.

That and the DISASTER that was the Alan Colmes show. I think what should be done is having the event, and THEN telling the press exactly what you want them to say. But having them on site only invites their own media BS. That and the idea that I left OpenCarry.org, the 90% nutjob community there seems to do the complete opposite of the open carry movement.
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Offline John Wolver

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Re: OC day posted on OC.org forum..
« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2009, 10:04:53 PM »
Again, aside from soem lack of direction at the zoo, why was it a failure?

As for the Allan Colmes show is that a reference to the woman who said whatever?

And having the press there and anyone, everyone we can will be fine.

We are planning speaking points and having someone/ someones speaking to the press so we can do our best to put the best face forward.

As for the nutjob comment, they are everywhere, its wading through the bs and getting to the positive that counts.

Offline luvmy45

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Re: OC day posted on OC.org forum..
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2009, 10:56:46 PM »
OC is not my cup of tea. Wish you luck and all, and happy to "consult" on better ways to do it, but I'm not into the OC thing and don't really want to be.

I'm for the 2nd amendment... that I support OC is only a part of the issue and not one that I want to make as a central selling point for my right to own and carry a gun. I have much better luck one on one with people in meaningful talks... there are now 2 people at my business that are gun owners that were not a year ago, one guy now has 3 different guns.

The funny thing is they are still confused about their rights as gun owners. They are freaked out about even having a gun in the car with them... I'd rather spend more time with the people that I know, that are gun phobic and show them that guns are fun, safe, enjoyable, and educate them about the laws and how the apply to them, than wander around the community with a Gun strapped to my belt generating 911 calls and tying up law enforcement for no good reason.

That's just my opinion, do what you want, but you posted here and defended your point, so I'm just giving you my reasons for not wanting to do it. It is what it is, I probably won't convince you, and you'll probably not convince me... but at the end of the day, we are both on the same side for the right of the citizen to own and carry a gun. I'm not going to stop you, just give you my thoughts on how to make it better.

If you really want to influence the media, have a Media Field day at the range, and invite all the media personalities to the range, give them some guns to shoot, educate them on safety, give them a talking points paper on the FACTS about guns. That would be far more beneficial than any rally you could organize in public, perception is reality, and the media bring perception to reality for most people.

Just my thoughts, good luck with your event... if your going to do it, at least print out the Gun Law Reference guide in Idaho, and pass it out.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/attachment.php?id=5480

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Offline Jeff

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Re: OC day posted on OC.org forum..
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2009, 11:09:30 PM »
Again, aside from soem lack of direction at the zoo, why was it a failure?

Apparently you can't see the big picture.  The event may have gone fine but the media coverage sucked.  All in all a negative as far as media is concerned.  I believe that the OC cause was hurt, as well as all firearms causes, by the interviews.  They made gun owners look stupid and OC crazy.  The media is not our friend and they do not behave like we want.

Quote from: John Wolver
And having the press there and anyone, everyone we can will be fine.

Sure, invite the enemy and expect them to treat you fairly.  I guarantee you they will target your weakest people.  You will have no control over what they use.  They will find some people there that will be scared and make the whole thing seem stupid and reckless.  You will have no control over what they use.  This tactic will only work if the media outfit is on your side.

Quote from: John Wolver
We are planning speaking points and having someone/ someones speaking to the press so we can do our best to put the best face forward.

I hope this is better handled than the last few times.  Remember, you will have no control over what they use.  Your only hope here is to have ALL your people refuse to talk to the media and point them to your spokesman.

Quote from: John Wolver
As for the nutjob comment, they are everywhere, its wading through the bs and getting to the positive that counts.

True, but it seems that there are far more associated with OC than other firearms related groups.  The OC group seems to have more people in it looking for a fight than teaching opportunities.
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Offline zona5101

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Re: OC day posted on OC.org forum..
« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2009, 06:06:56 AM »
The "interview" from the zoo event is no longer available. The OC'er interviewed was Carol Schultz. Might want to make sure she's not your spokesperson.  ;)
http://www.alan.com/2008/07/22/on-tuesdays-radio-show-26/
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Offline eddymunster

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Re: OC day posted on OC.org forum..
« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2009, 10:21:15 AM »
Apparently you can't see the big picture.  The event may have gone fine but the media coverage sucked.  All in all a negative as far as media is concerned.  I believe that the OC cause was hurt, as well as all firearms causes, by the interviews.  They made gun owners look stupid and OC crazy.  The media is not our friend and they do not behave like we want.

Sure, invite the enemy and expect them to treat you fairly.  I guarantee you they will target your weakest people.  You will have no control over what they use.  They will find some people there that will be scared and make the whole thing seem stupid and reckless.  You will have no control over what they use.  This tactic will only work if the media outfit is on your side.

I hope this is better handled than the last few times.  Remember, you will have no control over what they use.  Your only hope here is to have ALL your people refuse to talk to the media and point them to your spokesman.

True, but it seems that there are far more associated with OC than other firearms related groups.  The OC group seems to have more people in it looking for a fight than teaching opportunities.



I totally agree with Jeff. The media will skew the event and talking points.

RULE 3: "Whenever possible, go outside the expertise of the enemy." Look for ways to increase insecurity, anxiety and uncertainty. (This happens all the time. Watch how many organizations under attack are blind-sided by seemingly irrelevant arguments that they are then forced to address.)

RULE 5: "Ridicule is man's most potent weapon." There is no defense. It's irrational. It's infuriating. It also works as a key pressure point to force the enemy into concessions. (Pretty crude, rude and mean, huh? They want to create anger and fear.)

RULE 10: "If you push a negative hard enough, it will push through and become a positive." Violence from the other side can win the public to your side because the public sympathizes with the underdog. (Unions used this tactic. Peaceful [albeit loud] demonstrations during the heyday of unions in the early to mid-20th Century incurred management's wrath, often in the form of violence that eventually brought public sympathy to their side.)

RULE 12: Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it." Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions. (This is cruel, but very effective. Direct, personalized criticism and ridicule works.)

Offline John Wolver

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Re: OC day posted on OC.org forum..
« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2009, 12:09:48 PM »
OC is not my cup of tea. Wish you luck and all, and happy to "consult" on better ways to do it, but I'm not into the OC thing and don't really want to be.

I'm for the 2nd amendment... that I support OC is only a part of the issue and not one that I want to make as a central selling point for my right to own and carry a gun. I have much better luck one on one with people in meaningful talks... there are now 2 people at my business that are gun owners that were not a year ago, one guy now has 3 different guns.

The funny thing is they are still confused about their rights as gun owners. They are freaked out about even having a gun in the car with them... I'd rather spend more time with the people that I know, that are gun phobic and show them that guns are fun, safe, enjoyable, and educate them about the laws and how the apply to them, than wander around the community with a Gun strapped to my belt generating 911 calls and tying up law enforcement for no good reason.

That's just my opinion, do what you want, but you posted here and defended your point, so I'm just giving you my reasons for not wanting to do it. It is what it is, I probably won't convince you, and you'll probably not convince me... but at the end of the day, we are both on the same side for the right of the citizen to own and carry a gun. I'm not going to stop you, just give you my thoughts on how to make it better.

If you really want to influence the media, have a Media Field day at the range, and invite all the media personalities to the range, give them some guns to shoot, educate them on safety, give them a talking points paper on the FACTS about guns. That would be far more beneficial than any rally you could organize in public, perception is reality, and the media bring perception to reality for most people.

Just my thoughts, good luck with your event... if your going to do it, at least print out the Gun Law Reference guide in Idaho, and pass it out.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/attachment.php?id=5480

bk




You make some great points.  Im not trying to tell anyone to OC that doesnt want to.  The main point is, being on the same side.  Knowing that the 2nd Amendment isnt about hunting.  And if people call 911 because some one simply has a gun on, thats ignorance, and its not the person carrying that is at fault.  Unless they are brandishing their firearm or doing something stupid, but then that hurts all of us, not just the OC crowd.  I also educate one on one.  But if you were to educate one on one, and as you said you got 2 new gun owners, and thats great, but you also said they are confused on their rights.  WE cant have that because if they are confused they cant stand up to them and wont know when they are being taken away.  This event is to show our rights.  Get out to the public on a large scale, and maybe create/bring some new gun owners to the front.  Some quotes will be taken out of context im sure, but we will have our own cameras and Youtube to correct this.  And we will correct whatever media source decides to misquote us.  I did watch how channel 2 edited the last event.  Can we stop that, no, but can we fight back with the truth, yes.  As for the pamphlet, already have that planned, but thank you, i had the b/w version, not the colored.  And a media day at the range could and would be a good idea, but gun ownership is more about hunting and being at the range.  And for the record I appreciate your support and thoughts.

Offline John Wolver

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Re: OC day posted on OC.org forum..
« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2009, 12:12:33 PM »
The "interview" from the zoo event is no longer available. The OC'er interviewed was Carol Schultz. Might want to make sure she's not your spokesperson.  ;)
http://www.alan.com/2008/07/22/on-tuesdays-radio-show-26/

agreed, havent even spoke to her, she hasnt posted as far as I know.  If a spokesperson is needed we will do our damn best to make sure whoever it is, is educated and has speaking points.

Offline John Wolver

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Re: OC day posted on OC.org forum..
« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2009, 12:22:06 PM »
Apparently you can't see the big picture.  The event may have gone fine but the media coverage sucked.  All in all a negative as far as media is concerned.  I believe that the OC cause was hurt, as well as all firearms causes, by the interviews.  They made gun owners look stupid and OC crazy.  The media is not our friend and they do not behave like we want.

Sure, invite the enemy and expect them to treat you fairly.  I guarantee you they will target your weakest people.  You will have no control over what they use.  They will find some people there that will be scared and make the whole thing seem stupid and reckless.  You will have no control over what they use.  This tactic will only work if the media outfit is on your side.

I hope this is better handled than the last few times.  Remember, you will have no control over what they use.  Your only hope here is to have ALL your people refuse to talk to the media and point them to your spokesman.

True, but it seems that there are far more associated with OC than other firearms related groups.  The OC group seems to have more people in it looking for a fight than teaching opportunities.

Jeff I think you missed the big picture and yet you said it in the first place, The Event Went Fine!  yes the media kinda screwed them on the coverage, and as i said the only way to combat that is with making recordings of our own, recording the people they interview as well as they do it, and posting it.  What we can do is have our spokesman stick with the media, which with more help availabe, should be easy.  As for OC group looking for a fight, this is not true.  The real problem is that all our rights are being infringed, and we have the right to open carry and yet are hassled when we do, which is wrong.  You may not choose to open carry, but I do assume you support it, if you support the 2nd amendment.  This is about all of our rights.  Some of us choose to carry and be seen, others choose to conceal yet still carry, yet others choose to do neither but they still support what is going on.  That is what is needed, support for our rights.


Offline John Wolver

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Re: OC day posted on OC.org forum..
« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2009, 12:29:15 PM »


I totally agree with Jeff. The media will skew the event and talking points.

RULE 3: "Whenever possible, go outside the expertise of the enemy." Look for ways to increase insecurity, anxiety and uncertainty. (This happens all the time. Watch how many organizations under attack are blind-sided by seemingly irrelevant arguments that they are then forced to address.)

RULE 5: "Ridicule is man's most potent weapon." There is no defense. It's irrational. It's infuriating. It also works as a key pressure point to force the enemy into concessions. (Pretty crude, rude and mean, huh? They want to create anger and fear.)

RULE 10: "If you push a negative hard enough, it will push through and become a positive." Violence from the other side can win the public to your side because the public sympathizes with the underdog. (Unions used this tactic. Peaceful [albeit loud] demonstrations during the heyday of unions in the early to mid-20th Century incurred management's wrath, often in the form of violence that eventually brought public sympathy to their side.)

RULE 12: Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it." Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions. (This is cruel, but very effective. Direct, personalized criticism and ridicule works.)

rule 3- you handle this by bring the topic back to where it should be. 
rule 5- if they want to start doing any ridiculing, we will counter this as best as we can.
rule 10- we will not be the violent ones, we dont carry because we are violent, and if that is what is thought, it needs to be un-thought now.
rule 12- we will not leave anyone who is not comfortable alone with the media or anyone else.

Offline Jeff

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Re: OC day posted on OC.org forum..
« Reply #27 on: August 17, 2009, 12:39:31 PM »
The big picture is one little faction (OC) made all gun owners look stupid and crazy. Your event went fine but you did harm to us all. If you do that again then I will become an opponent.
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Offline John Wolver

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Re: OC day posted on OC.org forum..
« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2009, 12:47:19 PM »
The big picture is one little faction (OC) made all gun owners look stupid and crazy. Your event went fine but you did harm to us all. If you do that again then I will become an opponent.

Uninformed, sure, stupid, no.  Crazy? how so? they didnt shoot up the place or cause a problem.  They stood up for their rights.  The event went great.  What harm was done? seriously?  They got the message out that the law in idaho allows open carry.  And Jeff if you are not part of the solution, your part of the problem.  You already sound like an opponent.  What we need are positives, not negatives.  So please, be helpful. 

Offline zona5101

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Re: OC day posted on OC.org forum..
« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2009, 01:05:58 PM »
I looked for a link to the Colmbes show and while doing so reread many of the OC threads here on BShooters. One thing I noticed was directly in front of the zoo event a bunch of OCs joined Boise Shooters, hyped their event then disapeared.  :fart:
B2

Offline eddymunster

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Re: OC day posted on OC.org forum..
« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2009, 01:06:34 PM »
I carry concealed for a reason. I don't want to draw attention to myself. I carry to protect myself. I do not want to make a statement to anyone. If you OC in the general population that's great for you but, you are asking for confrontation IMO. That's not my thing.

Offline Jeff

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Re: OC day posted on OC.org forum..
« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2009, 01:13:45 PM »
It's time for this thread to end.  Please take your OC message somewhere else.  It's not welcome here.
Q: What was the most positive result of the "Cash for Clunkers" program?
A: It took 95% of the Obama bumper stickers off the road.