Author Topic: Thoughts on Ar-15 uppers and lowers? (Read 628 times)

sidaemon · « **on:** January 03, 2012, 11:02:54 PM »

So, I've done a few AR builds now, and I have to say that I have a fever. Seems like as soon as I finish one someone offers me more than I have into it for it, and it ends up sold. I enjoy the activity so I figure I'll keep up with it until I end up with one that no one offers to take off my hands.

This brings me to the question of uppers and lowers. Does anyone have any strong likes or dislikes brand wise for uppers or lowers? I've built so far on DPMS stuff as it tends to be affordable, and I've been pretty impressed with the quality (not like I'm in love with their quality, it seems like it does the job as does everyone else). I've hit the point however where I'm tired of dealing with Midway and the hassle they provide in ordering a lower, so I'm in the market to pick well whatever.... I live in Oregon and apparently I can't cross the border and pick up a lower because of the good folks at the ATF and their... shall we say interesting rules. The town I live in has no access to a place I can pick up parts so I have to order online.

I've talked with the folks at Sawtac and they say they will be happy to ship to me, but they have brands that I'm unfamiliar with. I guess the end result means that if I'm going to end up getting something I'm unfamiliar with I want to make sure I'm not ending up with trash... So does anyone have a brand they particularly recommend, any they would say push their least favorite aunt down a set of stairs to avoid?

Thanks.

Grumblecakes · « **Reply #1 on:** January 04, 2012, 12:20:50 AM »

i owned a s&w mp15 it was pretty good. managed to find a sw lower locally here in MT. having shot a variety of ,16/ars i gotta say its probably the one i like most, second would be FN. The one i liked the least was a colt m16, it was terrible, lots of sharp edges to cut the crap out of your hands and the rifle was new but a piece of crap, granted it was government owned. I like the dpms upper i have (24" ss hb).

there was a company a while back that was selling uppers with scratch and dings to the finish for cheap, cant remember who off hand

Jeff · « **Reply #2 on:** January 04, 2012, 02:10:26 AM »

I like PWS lowers too.

carharttfarmer · « **Reply #3 on:** January 04, 2012, 09:12:49 AM »

they all get the job done have used stag, dpms, rra, c3, mega and delton all get the job done its all just price ,avaliblity and personal preverence

broncovan · « **Reply #4 on:** January 04, 2012, 09:26:18 AM »

My favorite from the ones I've built:

1. Noveske with matched upper

2. Spikes

3. Aero Precision - quite impressive fit and finish considering their price point, might even be a tie with Spikes

4. Seekins Precision billet lower

5. DPMS

6. Rock River

Joey · « **Reply #5 on:** January 04, 2012, 10:01:52 AM »

I'm a huge fan of PWS uppers, and lowers!

telomere · « **Reply #6 on:** January 04, 2012, 01:54:13 PM »

Can't go wrong with PWS, Spikes, BCM.
But it all depends on the price your willing to pay, and what you want out of it.

Stag, DPMS, Delton, and Olympic work great for tons of people who can't afford upper tier equipment.
CMMG generally gets good reviews, although I don't have any personal experience with them.

Personally I went with Spikes, and I'm glad I did, as it seemed to be great quality at a reasonable price.

RGinIdaho · « **Reply #7 on:** January 04, 2012, 03:18:55 PM »

I'm sure some things have changed but, until just a few years ago all lower forgings came from about 4 outfits. The name on the side probably doesn't matter as much as we think it does.

tgibson · « **Reply #8 on:** January 04, 2012, 03:48:50 PM »

Quote from: RGinIdaho on January 04, 2012, 03:18:55 PM

I'm sure some things have changed but, until just a few years ago all lower forgings came from about 4 outfits. The name on the side probably doesn't matter as much as we think it does.

^^^^^. This.
Adios
TG

XDMHMMWV · « **Reply #9 on:** January 04, 2012, 03:55:00 PM »

Quote from: tgibson on January 04, 2012, 03:48:50 PM

^^^^^. This.
Adios
TG

Could it be that each manufacture orders by quality from those four casting companies?
Noveske orders hi quality, Spikes orders next lower grade, and so on.

sidaemon · « **Reply #10 on:** January 04, 2012, 05:46:18 PM »

So now here is a new thought based on the research I've done (and by the way great advice here from everyone that has contributed). What about matched uppers and lowers? Midway for example has a SI Defense matched upper and lower that advertises that it is matched up with no slop. I can see in a 1911 the value of such a thing in a build, but does anyone have any opinion on it with the AR? Worth the extra cash? What about the brand?

Again thanks for everyone's thoughts.
Zac.

emathey · « **Reply #11 on:** January 04, 2012, 05:49:21 PM »

I don't think it matters any. The bolt barrel and sights are all on the upper and would move as a unit.

Jeff · « **Reply #12 on:** January 04, 2012, 06:06:30 PM »

Quote from: XDMHMMWV on January 04, 2012, 03:55:00 PM

Could it be that each manufacture orders by quality from those four casting companies?
Noveske orders hi quality, Spikes orders next lower grade, and so on.

Nope.

There are just a few places that make forgings. There are a bunch of small places CNC finishing and anodizing them now.

I've seen some huge variations in both machining and anodizing lately. PWS is one of the best I've seen (and they get them done by one of the biggies).

Jaggy13 · « **Reply #13 on:** January 04, 2012, 06:10:45 PM »

Quote from: sidaemon on January 04, 2012, 05:46:18 PM

What about matched uppers and lowers?
Zac.

it doesn't matter to me at all, but some guys that do more precision stuff think it helps reduce deviation during their trigger pull. I have also heard the complaint of noise. (acu-wedge fixes both issues)
JP also makes a clamp that cinches to two half's together.
I think it's more marketing that anything personally... but each to their own.
I certainly wouldn't turn down a matched set but don't loose any sleep over it either.

If it does matter to someone here, I'd would like to hear why. Just curious.

broncovan · « **Reply #14 on:** January 04, 2012, 06:15:13 PM »

Quote from: XDMHMMWV on January 04, 2012, 03:55:00 PM

Could it be that each manufacture orders by quality from those four casting companies?
Noveske orders hi quality, Spikes orders next lower grade, and so on.

I don't think there's that much difference from one forge to another. From what I've seen, the quality assurance on the machining and finish can vary quite a bit from manufacturer to manufacturer. I've heard that "so and so" comes out of the same machine shop as "so and so", and that may well be true. But if I were a manufacturer and wanted to put out a quality lower/upper, I'd have a QA guy there making sure the fit and finish were up to par before my stamp went on. Not all manufacturers care as much as others.

broncovan · « **Reply #15 on:** January 04, 2012, 06:20:14 PM »

Quote from: Jaggy13 on January 04, 2012, 06:10:45 PM

If it does matter to someone here, I'd would like to hear why. Just curious.

I ordered my matched set from Noveske for a few reasons, I wanted the Noveske stamp on the upper, the finish to match, and have a nice snug fit. My reasons were more cosmetic than anything.

hessmanca · « **Reply #16 on:** January 04, 2012, 06:22:51 PM »

I have used several lowers and uppers for builds in the past few years. One name not mentioned so far is DSArms. They are a good quality product at a more than fair price. IMHO, I would rate their quality way above that of DPMS (from personal experience). I am not sure about their barrels; however I have used their uppers and lowers and have been very pleased with their workmanship.

Just another consideration.

+1 for PWS, great stuff!

sidaemon · « **Reply #17 on:** January 04, 2012, 06:50:15 PM »

So next question.... Where to buy. I don't mind spending a bit of cash for quality stuff. I've done a lot of business with Midway, but they don't carry a lot of the brands that people recommend. Doesn't look like Brownells does either (other then the Spike's lower, but I would like to keep the upper and lower by the same company, as it seems like if I do end up selling later a frankengun matched from a ton of different companies could be seen as cobbled together which I would assume would lower the value).

And I know that I'm being a pain in the butt here but it would have to be something that I could order and have shipped to my FFL as I can't buy a lower in Idaho as I am an Oregon resident...

I figure people here are going to know quality places that aren't going to simply take my money and laugh at me like a sucker... I could recoup it in time, but that's a whole lot of hassle to avoid simply looking for recommendations. Also if I'm off base in anything I'm thinking feel free to call me an ass... Or push me down some steps or something to teach me to stop being an idiot!

Thanks again for your time and opinions,
Zac.

RGinIdaho · « **Reply #18 on:** January 04, 2012, 06:56:52 PM »

Quote from: Jaggy13 on January 04, 2012, 06:10:45 PM

it doesn't matter to me at all, but some guys that do more precision stuff think it helps reduce deviation during their trigger pull.

If it does matter to someone here, I'd would like to hear why. Just curious.

Not that it matters to me personally but;

The lock time on a typical AR trigger is about 16 milli-seconds. The lock time on a bone stock bolt gun like a Remmy is about 4ms. The critical part being that between trigger break and ignition there is some wobble caused by a variety of things. With most setups and shooters, the movement however slight will be from the shooter. This is supposedly magnified when there is a slop in the weapon system itself. Then, there that gas system starting to unlock the bolt a millisecond after the bullet passes the gas port but is still in the barrel.

I don't notice it in an AR15. Of course I'm not trying to shoot bug holes with them. I do notice a difference in my .308 gasser. I have to be twice as conscious of form and flollow through to shoot the SR25 type weapons as well or better than my bolts.

You definitely notice the difference in lock times in revolvers as well. DA revolvers are known to have faster lock times than SA guns.

Did into David Tubbs and Zeideker's(sp) stuff. They 'splain it better than I can. Lighter hammers in AR's, lighter strikers in bolts, heavier springs and cleaner breaking triggers.

luvmy45 · « **Reply #19 on:** January 04, 2012, 07:22:53 PM »

I prefer uppers that say something.

J Mack · « **Reply #20 on:** January 04, 2012, 08:28:27 PM »

I have had good luck with the Tactical Innovations T15BDX billet lower.

Some things to look at.
WIRE EDM MACHINED MAGWELL
UPPER RECEIVER TENSIONING SCREW
REAR PIN DETENT CAPTURE SCREW

http://www.tacticalinc.com/t15bdxtrade-billet-deluxe-patented-billet-machined-lower-receiver-p-1082.html

If you decide to go with a forged then any name brand will serve you well so I would look at a getting one from the guy that pays the bills around here.

http://www.sawtac.com/index.php?dispatch=categories.view&category_id=183

sidaemon · « **Reply #21 on:** January 04, 2012, 09:06:45 PM »

I do like the Tactical Innovations lower... Seems like it has some excellent improvements over standard forged receivers, plus I have to say that I like the fact that they are manufactured locally.

Might call them tomorrow and see what their policy is for shipping and purchasing. I know the last time I tried to order from Midway they wanted my FFL guy to actually call and order, and then they wouldn't give me a shipping quote. I don't mind them needing to ship to an FFL, I understand that it's required by law, but I really don't want to hassle my friend any more than I need to.

HD-DVD · « **Reply #22 on:** January 05, 2012, 02:39:45 PM »

Most stripped lower receivers are good but I bet you'd get even more cash selling something really interesting instead of DPMS. You can buy lowers for $50-80 but adding another $50 or so for a really nice rollmark is a drop in the bucket when considering the cost of the entire rifle.

Of the lowers I've bought I'd rank the S&W M&P-15 and Valkyrie Arms (bought at SawTac) as very good. A Charles Daly was almost as good and an ArmaLite was all right but pretty rough in comparison. I just ordered a Quentin Defense US Army billet lower and am hoping it's a good as the pictures look. It's $159 so may be a little expensive to recoup when selling to another party but I'm building for myself so not an issue.

As far as uppers, there are lots of great choices. I got an ArmaLite from SawTac a while back and a Daniel Defense. I like both of them. BCM would be a great choice but I sure wouldn't put any quality upper on a DPMS rollmark lower as it would scream low cost to an informed buyer.

sidaemon · « **Reply #23 on:** January 05, 2012, 03:14:05 PM »

So here's a new question. Machined lower vs. a forged lower. I know in almost every other application that machined from solid stock is generally accepted as being higher quality. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

J Mack · « **Reply #24 on:** January 05, 2012, 03:34:13 PM »

Quote from: sidaemon on January 05, 2012, 03:14:05 PM

So here's a new question. Machined lower vs. a forged lower. I know in almost every other application that machined from solid stock is generally accepted as being higher quality. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Quality will be about the same if for instance they are both made at the same facility on the same equipment like the TI units.
Forgings are typically denser than billets and would yield a bit more strength but most manufactures take this into account when they design the billet lowers so really a non-issue.
I prefer the billets for my personal builds more for the styling and extra features and it doesn’t hurt that the chicks dig the bling!