Topic: Competition vs Combat AR

[luvmy45]

I'm not asking which is better, it's a question of what is really the difference?

In my mind, both guns need to by 100% reliable, so that's my starter, but what really defines a combat AR vs a competition AR?

[luckypunk]

well, lets see

a combat "AR" would be select fire

otherwise mission dictated

[carharttfarmer]

      Depends on wether Dutch owns it or you do

[ekuo]

Hell, I'm no expert in either area, and the last time I was seriously pissed off at somebody was in the 3rd grade...  

But talking with Raul at his class left a few impressions.  The main one was there wasn't much difference between his comp gun and work gun.  

Another thing that I remember was the need for a secondary sighting system if you're using an optic.  Reason:  optics have a tendency to fog up -like if you were to take the fight indoors on a cold day.  I suppose it is also possible that your scope could go TU on you, so all the more reason for a set of back-up irons.  If I recall correctly, Raul's work gun had the offset irons, not fold down kind, so all it took was a cant to the left and he was on target again.  

Maybe more mounting rails to hang stuff on, such as lights.

Maybe a flash hider instead of a comp.  Nicer for your fellow entry-team members.  

[donm]

I agree with Evans and the accuracy is usually not as critical in combat though does come in handy.

[No-One]

My father has been in a few gunfights and the advice he gave me was , "The best gun to have in a gunfight ...... Is a gun."

If that gun is accurate or runs 100% that is just a bonus .

In competition you get to choose a weapon and customize it to your mission at your leisure .

Again , if that gun is accurate and runs 100% it is a bonus

[popsgunner]

Holy crap guys,

the difference is that competition targets DON'T SHOOT BACK.

Pops

[2big2fail]

   IMO... don't really know, never been in active combat.  A defensive pistol situation a couple times, but no full on lead hailstorm.  My little brother, though, has.  Two tours in the sandbox search and destroy.  I took him out to the range on a couple different occasions and he shot my AR.  The thing is pretty basic, tilt ups, eotech, foregrip.  I was impressed when after a couple mags he held it out giving it the eye, and said..  "nice, woulda liked having that in the desert."
    I thought at first he was bullshitting me.  He explained that even though the guys in the field had select fire, most all kept it set on single shot.  The next comment was on accuracy, apparently, the issue rifles aren't drilling dimes, quarters, or even dollar bills in some cases.  They also abused the fukk out of their rifles, which, could explain that.  In most close quarter situations (typically within 50meters or less) it's all blurry anyway.  You have to get ahold of you're nerves before sights will help a whole lot. 
     Anyway, just about every time a confrontation began, it was finished up with artillery and snipers,or a chopper.   FWIW.

[luvmy45]

the difference is that competition targets DON'T SHOOT BACK.

Hey Pops, that is very true... however, I'm not talking about competition vs combat games... I'm asking about the rifles themselves for competition vs combat.

I know a combat gun can work for competition and a competition gun can work for combat, but other than both being a 100% reliable gun, what would a Military/LEO vs a Home Defense vs a competition AR GUN difference be AND WHY?

Ekuo lays out some good reasons for BUIS from Raul and LP mentions Select Fire, what else and why?

[J Mack]

What would a Military/LEO vs a Home Defense vs a competition AR GUN difference be AND WHY?

For the LEO guys I know.
The entry guys are using a 12” Noveske rifles with red dots and the perimeter guys use a 16” Rock River with open sights
 Neither rifle would make a good competition rifle IMHO, and I don't believe the entry guys would change anything but I do believe if budget wasn’t an issue the perimeter guys would use something similar to a three gun setup.

[e11charlie]

2big2fail is right.  I dont think I ever put my rifle on burst.  Everyone else has it right though.  If it is reliable then who cares if it is combat or competition?  You can put all of that money into a rifle with all the bells and whistles but when the SHTF your accuracy goes way down.  All the special triggers and such wont help that.  Its the adrenalin.  I dont care how much you practice.  I would suggest your basic AR for battle.  An EoTech set up co witness with your irons so you dont have to cant shit as you will be already there on target.  K.I.S.S.

[dutch1911]

    Depends on wether Dutch owns it or you do

Ooooh that's cute...  

As many of you know that question alone is a can of worms.  I'm certain there are a number of you sitting back waiting for the fireworks.
Regardless, Combat as defined in what realm?  Well... you have Law Enforcement, you have Military, you have Entry Teams, Perimeter Teams blah blah blah.
Often times barrel length is also dictated by specialized team or capability.  And again, there are those that don't really care.  
So what it really comes down to is... it's completely subjective.  And that's the beauty of the  AR platform.  You can do what you want with it dictated by your needs.
In my mind what's combat ready and competition ready with the AR is often times slight and more often than not involves heavily in the reliability factor.
To make a long drawn out document as short as possible I'll keep it to a minimum.
Sights... Competition sights historically have been larger in size, more fragile and transmit less light to the eye from front sight post to rear sight, are usually FULLY adjustable by screw type adjustments which can move accidentally, have sharp corners that snag... and did I mention they historically will tend to brake easily.
Flash Suppressors/Compensator... Competition takes a big turn here and there are always new advancements.  Typically a Combat weapon will move towards flash suppression as opposed to comps due to noise, flash signature and dust signatures associated with MOST comps.  Comps are almost always much louder for yourself and individuals on an entry team etc.  Comps are also problematic indoors... noise flash etc... typically.  However a comp will increase your time on target as with the PWS comp many of you rave about, and I intend to run through the paces.  But that's typically what you will find there.
Chamber/Barrel... Traditionally chambers are tighter on target weapons.  With the turn of competition the last 10 years many shooters are turning to slightly more open chambers to compensate for dirt, dust, carbon buildup etc.  Much as you would find in a military grade weapon.  Kimber 1911 chambers for instance are historically tighter and shorter than you would find on say... Colt 1911's etc.  Accuracy there comes at a price also I've watched Kimbers on several occasions fail due to reloaded ammunition and tighter chambers.  But lets not get into a bashing session.  With AR's in the past you would find "Sporter" versions that would be chambered for Remington .223 ONLY.  These chambers are tighter dimensionally with slight increases in accuracy.  But the price you pay overall could be devastating to you and your weapon if loaded with the wrong ammunition.  You'll find a Combat weapon typically (as always is never the case) will be a 5.56 Mil Spec chamber. (Mil Spec chambers typically are better in dirty climates/conditions and can sustain heavy amounts of fire between cleanings without jamming.)
Mostly everything else comes down to Weight=Pain... which is true in both worlds.  However target/competition shooters are in a heavily and completely controlled environment.  They know what conditions they'll be shooting in and prepare for it.  Combat... almost never the case, you prepare for everything and anything.
Little things such as offset mounted iron sights... well... to each his own.  In my experience I've yet to see an LE Officer or Military Personel pull an AR/M4 out with offset mounted iron sights.  Something such as that... you better train with it and be completely familiar with what your weapon is doing in correlation to the angles associated.  BUIS... is a whole different realm... I like machined steel material... I have friends that run compressed composite... ie plastic.  Ok... to each his own... it's barbies for men for a reason.
I don't believe that there is ONE is better setup with this question.  As your possibilities are limitless.
What's important is that it runs when you want it to, acts the way you expect it to and is completely consistent.  
Yes yes yes... parts wear and break... that's not a reliability issue as was stated in another thread.  Breaks happen... it's your responsibility to maintain your weapon appropriately.  (ie replace parts prior to breaking if you can)  Reliability is a must for me.  If your weapon you had built by Joe Schmuck the rag man down the street doesn't always run... well... that's a problem.  I've heard folks blame their malfunctions on ammunition or reloads... ok.  Fine... but if your reloads are causing your problems with your weapon... then adapt and overcome and most importantly improve your reloads.  If not... well... then in my world you're incompetent at reloads and not bright enough to figure out the problem is you.
So... that's the basics... I'm certain I forgot to mention something... But what's important is consider your theater of operation and adapt accordingly.

Dutch
1/*
Black Talon Defensive Dynamics LLC.

[fj40mojo]

Both should share the same attributes as stated already, reality though (and this is coming from a former US Army infantryman) is that the combat AR was likely built by the winner of a ginormous guberment contract and may or may not be a representative example of the fire arm that won that contract for the mfg, it has likely been abused and mistreated by all those to which it has been issued (no telling how many individuals), has been subjected to an unsatisfactory cleaning regimen that may have adversely affected it's accuracy, and the poor bastard that carries it gets little to no choice as to how it is set up and what optics and accessories he is allowed to attach to it or the ammo he shoots through it. In my mind that is the major difference, you get a choice as to mfg, optics, accessories, maintenance, and you know who has fired it, with what ammo and the history of your AR. That Soldier, Marine, Sailor and Airman that is bustin his or her hump in the sandbox doesn't have that luxury.  They are pretty much stuck with what ever the armorer assigned to them and there is no tellin just how shitty the end of the stick might be. Just sayin.

[luvmy45]

Interesting thoughts... other questions that come to mind...

How about triggers? What optics are preferred and why? Are mounting rails important, seems all the guns these days have more rails for mounting everything do you need that on a combat weapon? Do you need more than a flashlight? How about mags? 10/30 plastic/metal, BAD levers? Redi Mags? Other stuff? Do you need/want it? Grips? sling mount options? stock options? Weight?

[ida83704]

I think the only military that can choose their weapons are Deltas, Seals and maybe SF.

Everyone else shoots what they are issued, but some units can use a personal optic with command approval.

USMC use ACOG's generally, Army Aimpoints

[dutch1911]

Interesting thoughts... other questions that come to mind...

How about triggers? What optics are preferred and why? Are mounting rails important, seems all the guns these days have more rails for mounting everything do you need that on a combat weapon? Do you need more than a flashlight? How about mags? 10/30 plastic/metal, BAD levers? Redi Mags? Other stuff? Do you need/want it? Grips? sling mount options? stock options? Weight?

Interesting indeed, I went through all this as I was doing my research for building my AR.  And again, I don't think there is anything out there that is wrong or right in this arena.  Again... Theater of Combat... what are you using it for, what are your needs, desires, likes and dislikes.
My thoughts... and mine only. 
Triggers... For me a 2 stage trigger has no place on a combat weapon.  Even as an LE Sniper I run a Remington 700 Jewel trigger.  But... some guys like a 2 stage trigger, Rock River is huge on them.  But even a single stage trigger that is gritty and heavy or inconsistent is crap.  I'm in process of smoothing out the trigger on my 6920.  Takes time but I want to leave it as Colt built it.
Optics... You have anything available you prefer.  Seems like the 3 gun guys like a little magnification.  LE Combat Rifles typically never have magnification.  My personal...  I run Aimpoint PRO.  At work we have Eotech... is one better than the other.... it's subjective.  I like Aimpoint better... but yet I get dealer pricing on Eotech.  For me the Aimpoint works better.  One big difference you'll find here is where it's mounted.  Combat weapons typically will have the optic mounted full forward on the upper.  Target shooters... will be at eye relief distances.  The main difference is field of view.  With a combat weapon you want as full a field of view as possible with your optic still being effective.  But yet, I shoot with both eyes open and not everyone out there does.
Rails... Weight=Pain... I run a Daniel Defense Modular Foregrip... i only mount the rails where I need them.  I don't run anything more than a light.  And I don't need a million candle flood light.  Nor do I run it all the time.  I'm not running with our boys in the sand box that need a laser to paint a target or call in a helio... so it's pointless.  Lasers are a completely different opinion for me also.
I've ran standard Mil Spec with green followers mags for years, they've been great.  I recently switched to Magpul P Mags.  I like them a lot.  They're lighter and damn near indestructible.  That's subjective also, I've seen them explode hitting the ground in Alaska years ago... but I believe they've since fixed that issue.
BAD levers... in my opinion are just that... BAD.  Again my opinion.  I'm faster with tac and combat reloads and clearing malfunctions than guys that have them.  But I also practice all that at home in my gun room.  I don't need or want a lever that doesn't need to be there, getting in my way or failing when I need it most.
Slings... up to you.  I like a single point and i like a 2 point.  All depends on my needs at the time.  Single points have their drawbacks they leave the muzzle moving freely if you transition to a secondary or cuffs.  You can overcome that by slinging the weapon behind a holster or something else.  Regardless... up to you.  Bungees are nice too, but they have their drawbacks as do 2 points.  2 points tend to get in the way of high stress issues like malfunction clearances like a type 3 for instance. And can be a bit more hectic when transitioning to support side.
Try a few different slings out, find what fits you comfortably and run it till your fingers bleed.  If it doesn't work for you 90+ percent of the time dump it and find something else.
Everything else is highly personal also... butt stocks, mounts, slings, mags... it's what you train with.  More bullets in the weapon is better than more bullets on your belt line.  A Butt stock that welds a perfect cheek weld but is an ounce heavier is better for consistency and accuracy than one that doesn't.  Weight=Pain... anyone that has run a weapon for days on end especially slung will tell you that.  And I'm a bit of a purest especially when it comes to 1911's... simple is often better.
Dutch
1/*
Black Talon Defensive Dynamics LLC.

[ekuo]

Ah, what they hell.  A few more thoughts:

1)  The term "competition gun" needs to be defined.  If you're talking about Hi Power or Bench Shooting, then yeah -there are definitely some limitations that I wouldn't want to have to worry about in a SHTF situation.  But if we're talking about AR's suitable for 3-gun competition, that's a completely different animal than the AR rifle that has been customized to the nth degree to wring out every last second of MOA accuracy for long distance shooting.  There are a bunch of 3-gunners using rifles chambered in .223 Wylde that allow a wide range of ammo selection and accuracy without giving up the reliability.  That needs to be factored in.  Plus the sport of 3-gun is not a gentle one, and guns as well as people get banged up.  Both need to be able to take it.  Lets also look at the environment we're shooting in.  Take Parma as an example.  Dusty, windy, sand, gravel, powdered dirt, airborne grit, hot, and flies.  We're not shooting from benches, and more often are shooting prone, kneeling, squatting, and the guns and shooters are in the dirt a lot.  If they were as finicky and hyper-senstive to dirt as some are suggesting, no way would they run in this environment.  But look at the Ironman, look at the round count, and look at the conditions.  Then look at how they have their guns set up, the barrels they are using, what they are chambered in...

2) Combat:  I'm trying to figure out what Luvy45 means by combat, and presumably we're not discussing the design of the next service issue battle rifle here, but rather the gun you build or spec out for yourself to grab as a SHTF or something-goes-bump-in-the-night AR.  And before somebody chimes in with "REM 870", the OP specified AR.  

3)  Somebody already said it:  mission dictated.  Which is what we do on a 3-gun competition rifle.  We look at the conditions under which we're going to be shooting in, the stage design, the distances, the need to transition from a 5 yd shot to a 400 yd shot on the same stage, the positions in which we'll be shooting in, the barricades, and allow all those factors to dictate how we accessorize our rifles and gear.  Ditto for pistol and shotgun.  Even how we carry the crap comes into play.  

If I was building a SHTF rifle, I'd probably do a few things different, but not much.  The additions would have to do with the things that I think a SHTF situation would require that a 3-gun match didn't.  Namely the ability to mount a light or lights, a secondary sighting system, and I'd probably want a barrel with a lighter weight profile since I'll probably be carrying it a lot.  And if I intend to keep my hearing and friends, I'd probably not use the FCS556 comp and go with a regular flash hider or that Noveske fire-breathing pig attachment or even a suppressor.  No wait, definitely go with the suppressor for the CDI factor.  

But I still like the idea of a variable 1-4x scope even for SHTF situations since I can also use the 4x to help identify my target when it is still a ways out, and on 1x it is still pretty damn quick target acquisition for close.  I'd still go with the 18" barrel and rifle gas system that I have on my 3-gun AR since I seem to be able to maneuver it around fairly well in tight corners, and I still like the 1:8 twist since it supports shooting 55 to 77 gr bullets.  I'd also probably continue to use a round FF hand guard and only mount short sections of rail where I needed them for mounting lights or off-set irons, and chances are they'd be at 2 o'clock and 10 o'clock instead of 3, 6, 9, or 12 that a quad rail forces you to.  I'd still get a long hand guard since I can get my support arm out there for better control and ability to drive the gun around (none of that hold-the-AR by the magwell for me).  

As far as triggers, I'd probably revert back to the milspec trigger.  Simple, easy to maintain, and most importantly it works and is reliable.  But push comes to shove, I'm sure my match-tested Parma-dirt tested single stage Geiselle S3G will work just fine.  BAD levers -yeah, sure, whatever, its a personal preference in my opinion.  Redimag?  How about a Springer mag coupler instead?  (Why not indeed?)  AFG?  Go for it if you like it.  Sling -YES,or at least the sling attachment points since I'll probably be carrying it a lot or don't want to put it down if need to transition to the pistol.  

Form follows function.  

[dutch1911]

+1 on all that! Well.. lol most of it.
Just goes to show you... There are so many options its incredible.
And you're right, competition vs. Combat does need to be defined. As I'm very new to 3 gun my perceptions are in fact... Skewed. However I didn't want to get into the caliber debate and open a crazy can of worms.

Dutch

[ekuo]

Right on Dutch.  Good call on keeping that beyatch Pandora in her box! 

It sounds like we agree on keeping things simple and as bare bones as possible.  I happen to like 1911's as well... 

Shootability (is that a word?) ought to be a factor as well.  Not the I-wanna-be-like-Travis-Haley shooting ability, but rather the gun and sighting system should be set up so the person pulling the trigger can operate it with ease and normal ergonomics.  Testing and trying out different types of gear for yourself should be part of the process because we don't really know what we don't know, and you can only trust somebody else's review of a product so far. 

Luvmy45, where are you headed with all this? 

[luvmy45]

Luvmy45, where are you headed with all this? 

Nowhere, not judging answers just asking a question and wondering what the group think was on the difference in the two.

I really don't care about hearing about why one platform won't work for the other. I am interested in the why you would choose what you have.

Not that I'm grading answers, but yours was the type of discussion that I was envisioning. Layout out what you think, the reasoning behind it and how you arrive at that answer. Not because of why the other platform is bad at it, but why one platform works better for it.

There is no right answer, and I'm not looking to debate a particular issue or start fireworks, although I did about fall off my chair laughing at one response, just asking and listening.

[Jaggy13]

I think most of the 3 gun rifles we see around here would also be decent "fighting rifles". The whole point of 3 gun is have a weapon that does it all.
I'm assuming that's what you mean by "competition". We don't see much in the way of way tricked out or "cartoony" rifles. nothing like comparing a race gun to your 1911.

The only real changes I would make to my rifle would be backup or side mount Iron sights, and a light.
Not sure why the BAD lever is a "Comp" only accessory. I think its a great accessory, but then again, I'm left handed... WTF do I know.
That and other ambi control's are what make this platform so usable for me.

Whats the deal with people ditching their match triggers all the sudden for a GI?
If your not on target your on safe right?

One of the benefits I see with shooting 3 gun matches is just like what Evans pointed out, we get to stress test out equipment and better yet, get to learn how it really works, and what we really need in a rifle.

I keep my set up fairly simple though, some mileage may vary.

[Scarecrow]

3-gun rifles are the ultimate mission dedicated guns.

[dutch1911]

Not sure why the BAD lever is a "Comp" only accessory. I think its a great accessory, but then again, I'm left handed... WTF do I know. ::

Soooo many things now make sense.... My apologies for being insensitive to your disability...
;-).
Lol ... U know I'm kidding right.... Put the bat down...

[RGinIdaho]

Not sure why the BAD lever is a "Comp" only accessory. I think its a great accessory, but then again, I'm left handed... WTF do I know.

Whats the deal with people ditching their match triggers all the sudden for a GI?
If your not on target your on safe right?

BAD lever:
Don't most comps have a rule in the books about fingers in the trigger guard or on the trigger while moving, reloading and the like. I'm sure I've read it in both the IDPA and USPSA books. Seems the BAD lever would be ruled a hazard by the current rules. You don't see it enforced much but you do hear the warnings on a regular basis. I personally put my trigger finger inside the trigger guard for one use only. I don't want it in the trigger guard unless I'm about to take up the slack.

Trigger:
I don't know about GI but 4.5lbs and above and no adjustments is what I have been taught for a social tool. Stress is said to degrade fine motor skills. Maybe a heavier trigger will keep you from ND'ing into a team mate or family member? Not an issue in individual comps.

Let's face it, the longest shot possible in most homes would be well under 50ft. Effective accuracy probably won't depend on trigger pull.

Adjustables have been known to do just that on their own. Light strikes seem to be an ailment with some comp guns when I think about it. I've also heard more than one competitor complain that he touched it off before the sights were settled and had to make up the shot

Safety comes off when the sights are coming on target in comps. In a shoot no shoot scenario you might have the safety off while the sights are on a "potential" threat. You still may not have enough information about ability and jeopardy to shoot. Milliseconds determine the outcome should an invader with his back to you decide to turn and shoot. I wouldn't want to waste time with the safety should a threat decide to turn and prove ability and jeopardy. I wouldn't want too light a trigger should that intruder turn and reveal himself to be a family member, simple thief or non-hostile intruder that just has poor decision making skills.
.

Better add IMHO to all of that 

[Kcboats]

+1 For Pops...sorry I stopped reading after that... ...LMAO!!

[ida83704]

Aren't most military rifle triggers in the 8# range back at least to WW1, accross all militaries.

Pretty sure there is a reason for that.

 

[No-One]

My factory RRA trigger runs pretty close to 8 pounds . Its a fricking pig 

[Jaggy13]

Soooo many things now make sense.... My apologies for being insensitive to your disability...
;-).
Lol ... U know I'm kidding right.... Put the bat down...

Glad you finally understand what your dealing with....
We are a proud people and prefer the term "Handi-capable"..

Ralph,
I hear ya and that does make sense. My trigger is close to 4lb as it is, and I'm pretty happy with it. As for the BAD lever, I didn't realize you "righties" put your finger in the trigger guard to use it. For me, my left index finger bladed outside the guard can push it "in" to manipulate bolt lock. And I can send the bolt home with my weak hand after a reload. My hand is beer can gripping the mag and I use my thumb to sweep down and send the bolt home.
It works great for me, and I feel confident that I am no where near the trigger.

[luckypunk]

Glad you finally understand what your dealing with....
We are a proud people and prefer the term "Handi-capable"..

Ralph,
I hear ya and that does make sense. My trigger is close to 4lb as it is, and I'm pretty happy with it. As for the BAD lever, I didn't realize you "righties" put your finger in the trigger guard to use it. For me, my left index finger bladed outside the guard can push it "in" to manipulate bolt lock. And I can send the bolt home with my weak hand after a reload. My hand is beer can gripping the mag and I use my thumb to sweep down and send the bolt home.
It works great for me, and I feel confident that I am no where near the trigger.

I run rifles Lefty....I can reach the bolt release with my booger hook easy enough
the only control that is a little difficult is the safety selector.  as it is I use the Metacarpophalyngeal Joint of my index finger.

[dutch1911]

BAD lever:
Don't most comps have a rule in the books about fingers in the trigger guard or on the trigger while moving, reloading and the like. I'm sure I've read it in both the IDPA and USPSA books. Seems the BAD lever would be ruled a hazard by the current rules. You don't see it enforced much but you do hear the warnings on a regular basis. I personally put my trigger finger inside the trigger guard for one use only. I don't want it in the trigger guard unless I'm about to take up the slack.

Trigger:
I don't know about GI but 4.5lbs and above and no adjustments is what I have been taught for a social tool. Stress is said to degrade fine motor skills. Maybe a heavier trigger will keep you from ND'ing into a team mate or family member? Not an issue in individual comps.

Let's face it, the longest shot possible in most homes would be well under 50ft. Effective accuracy probably won't depend on trigger pull.

Adjustables have been known to do just that on their own. Light strikes seem to be an ailment with some comp guns when I think about it. I've also heard more than one competitor complain that he touched it off before the sights were settled and had to make up the shot

Safety comes off when the sights are coming on target in comps. In a shoot no shoot scenario you might have the safety off while the sights are on a "potential" threat. You still may not have enough information about ability and jeopardy to shoot. Milliseconds determine the outcome should an invader with his back to you decide to turn and shoot. I wouldn't want to waste time with the safety should a threat decide to turn and prove ability and jeopardy. I wouldn't want too light a trigger should that intruder turn and reveal himself to be a family member, simple thief or non-hostile intruder that just has poor decision making skills.
.

Better add IMHO to all of that 

Oustanding!!!


Oh... And as for laughing boy.. kcboats... Really...

[Momma Sheepdog]

The operator