Topic: Need advice on new 3-gun rifle

[donm]

I messed up. I let my wife shoot my AR15 and now she wants it and wants to sell her Browning Micro Medalion .223. The stock on my lower is a little long for her so I figure I could keep the lower and get her one with the adjustable butt. SO the question is what upper should I get for me and which lower for her. I have the Remingtom VTR camoflage so another upper may not look right but I don't care about looks as much as function and I don't think she cares either. There are so many out there to choose from you can go crazy trying to pick one.

thanks
don

[avking]

If you want a rifle for 3-Gun, then you want a JP. By far the most popular choice in 3 Gun shooting. I have owned two and have never shot any other ar-15 that even came close to the JP.

[dutch1911]

I'll see your np and raise you my Colt on reliability and combat ability.
There is no need to start off with that kind if money. However if you have it and want to toss it in the wind.. feel free..
I recommend Colts 6920...
 Dutch1911
1/*

[Jaggy13]

take the upper your buying a lower for down to sawtac or ambush and see if any of their lowers fit snuggly. Both have great prices on lowers.Thats where ai would tell ya to start. I use an acuwedge but that fit is important to some.
If that lower is already a good fit for your upper just change the stock and keep it for your build and get a matched upper and lower together.

check out a bunch of rifle at the new years match and see what you like. Nelio and I have similar but different length rifles, and others like BK and Evans have nice setup's as well.

[ekuo]

Don,
Why not assemble everything from parts?  That way you put on exactly what you want and nothing that you don't. 

There's a lot of personal preference in rifles, and what works for one may not work for another.  But where I think it is worth investing the cash is in the barrel, BCG, trigger, and a free float tube since we seem to shoot off barricades a lot.  The rest is fairly vanilla. 

In 3-gun you want something that can handle close and long distance shooting, so its kind of a compromise between the two.  An 18" barrel fits the bill pretty good, though some do well with a 16".  I've got most of the tools to put one together, so let me know if you go this route. 

-EKuo

[luvmy45]

Currently I use a RRA with a 16" M4 configured AR... it's pretty much stock and the rifle works well for me... my failing thus far in 3 gun, are not the rifle's fault... just mine. 

I'm kinda in the same boat, as now that I've shot some 3 gun matches, and handled a bunch of different guns, I think I know what I what for my 3 gun needs. I have an adjustable stock, I'm good with that. Things I want for 3 gun are:

1. Trigger - Jard or Geisslle , whichever I find the best deal on

2. 18" barrell with VTAC/JP free float handguard - smooth, no rails (I hate rails) I want my hand farther forward for stability. and the 18" does this for me.

3. Optics - the more I shoot the better the optics need to be. I started with a Millett DMS - Just put a Vortex PST on yesterday, and I'm loving it so far... try a bunch of different types of glass and see what works for you. You need to be able to do holdovers without thinking. 100, 200, 300, 400 and even a few 500 for bonus stuff.

There's my Christmas wish list, might have to print this out and give it to the wife. 

[donm]

Thanks guys. I appreciate all the input. I looked at JP and they are out of my price range. I also looked at LaRue and they are closer but I don't know much about them. I think my real problem is that I don't know what all the accronims mean yet and there are just so many options out there. if I built one up with parts I would need some help on even knowing where to start and where to go for parts. I have a 22" barrel and it is too long for up close so been concidering an 18". I would like SS with probably a medium contour posibly fluted but I like the JP barrel cooler. I also like the smooth hand guard fairly long. I just ordered the Burris TXR Extreme 1 X 4 and P.E.P.S mount. Hopefully they will be here in time to get them mounted and sighted in for Jan. 1st match. I have read a bunch on barrel twist rate and bullet weight and it doesn't seem to match up in real life so all that is confusing. I had RK put a spring kit in the current trigger and it is way better than the stock setup. I shot it yesturday and it felt real good. Tried out some 68gr loads and the best group was 2" and that was the slowest load @ around 2700 fps. The ones I loaded with 55gr get there best group @ about 2900 fps @ about 1/2" and it gets bigger above and below that. Last but not least I worked up some new loads for my pistol. Was shooting 5.3gr Unique because that was work worked in the begining when they were 1.18 col. Since then I have shortend them up to 1.125 and never re-checked on the cronograph. I knew they had to be to hot so I loaded some different ones and shot them. 5.0gr was at 993 fps. never shot the 5.3gr, I forgot to take some with me. Ended up at 4.8gr was a little high and 4.6gr was right on the verge of not making it so I'm loading 4.7gr now. I have a lot of bullets to pull and have been working on that. Originally I started with Montana Gold HP and at 1.18 col and 5.3 gr they were 930 fps. After shortening them to 1.125 now they are at 996 fps so I will be pulling them also. The new ones I got from Jaggy loaded with 5.2gr was on the verge of not making it. The JFP are .024" shorter than the lead and haven't pulled a MG to check length. Looks like all will use a different load because mainly bullet length.
I would like to talk to Evans more about building a gun from parts.
Thanks again.

[ekuo]

Well, this is going to be somewhat biased because it is based on what I did, but here are some thoughts for you for a dedicated 3-gun rifle:

Barrel:  18" stainless steel (as opposed to chrome-moly lined) with a 1:8 twist will give you a good balance of long/short and range of 55 to 75 gr bullet weights which would be perfect for 3-gun.  From what I understand, chrome-lined barrels last longer when using hi velocity ammo, but are not as accurate.  An 18" barrel is also compatible with a rifle length gas system since there is sufficient dwell time past the gas hole before the bullet exists the barrel.  I ended up with a medium contour barrel, but if I had to do it over again I would probably give serious consideration towards a lighter weight one.  Travis has one that was turned down and wrapped in carbon fiber that weights almost nothing...  Mine is a JP barrel with a Wylde chamber, and it will run .223 Remington as well as 5.56mm ammo, but all I run in it are my own reloads.  I think I've shot <100 rnds of .223 factory ammo thru it, and that was during break-in.  

Gas block:  as mentioned before, I prefer a rifle length gas system, and I ended up with an adjustable one that is turned down to 3/4 to reduce the amount of gas going back to the bolt.  The gas block on my gun is even with the end of the free float hand guard, but if I was to do it over again I'd have gotten a low-profile gas block so I could use a longer hand guard that extends beyond the gas block.  

Free Float Hand guard:  I'm with Luvmy45 in that I don't like the feel of a quad rail.  Not only it is harsh on the hand, and yes you can get rail covers, but most of the quad rail hand guards have a larger outside diameter than a round tube with no rails.  Plus I didn't envision needing all those rails, because its not like we're going to be mounting a lot of junk on our guns.  But even the round tubes have mounting slots for adding short sections of rail if you find the need for one.  I'm running a VTac/JP 12" FF hand guard, but would recommend a 13" or 15" so you can get your hand further out towards the end of the gun.  Most of the FF hand guards come with their own barrel nut that you'll use to attach the barrel to the receiver as well as be the attachment point for the hand guard.

Bolt Carrier Group (BCG):  Some people recommend spending money on a good one and I followed this advise when I got mine.  You'll want to make sure it is MPI (magnetic particle inspected), and maybe even coated so it cleans up easily.  A functioning BCG is critical to the reliable operation of a Direct-Impingement (DI) rifle, so its worth the expense in my opinion to get a good one.  Mine is from FailZero and is iobond coated for its inherent lubricity and ease in cleaning, and while I can't just wipe off the carbon build-up it only takes some light scraping to get it off.  I do run my bolts dripping wet, and so far no problems.  

Trigger:  I ran a milspec trigger that came from a DPMS lower parts kit for the first year or so, then upgraded to a Geissele Super 3 Gun trigger after talking to a  few people and trying their after market triggers.  JP's are really nice, but I feared that the install was a little beyond me since fitting was required.  The Geissele was a drop-in affair.    

Adjustable stocks: Magpul makes a bunch of options ranging from the $60 MOE to $250 UBR or PRS.  The only advantage I can see for the higher priced ones is more consistent cheek weld and maybe they are stouter, but beyond that... get one that you like and can afford.  There are two types of receiver tubes:  Milspec and Commercial, and they have different diameters.  No real difference other than that, but you'll want to make sure that your stock is compatible with the type of receiver tube you have.

Upper/Lower receivers:  I'm sure there are differences between some of the higher quality billet receivers compared to the lower end aluminum cast ones, but in truth I can't tell the difference -maybe I will in about 20,000 rnds.  You don't even need to get a lower/upper receiver to be the same brand, though the matched set ones may fit together tighter.  But as Jaggy said, you can use an Accuwedge to take up any play between them.  My lower is a LAR and upper is Yankee Hill.  

Lower Parts Kit:  These go for about $60-70, and contain all the pins, detents, safety, mag release, trigger guard, grip, hammer, trigger, etc... that you'll need to assemble the lower, but in my case I ended up using after-market grip, trigger guard, trigger/hammer.  

Charging Handle:  after playing with TG's, I replaced mine with one from Techwell since it has an oversized handle for right-hand manipulation.  No regrets.  That thing is awesome.

Sling:  every now and then our 3-gun matches will require a sling, so its best to factor that into your gun and make sure there are attachment points for either a single point or 2-point sling.  I have a 2-point that I made based on the Vicker's design, and that was because the only time I tried a single-point I was hitting myself in the junk whenever I transitioned to pistol.  But watching Raul manipulate his single-point at a class got me thinking because one advantage of a single point is the ability to transition to the weak shoulder...  

The cool thing about AR's is there is very little fitting required to assemble one from parts, and they are for the most part drop-in.  I hesitate to use the term "building an AR" since all you're really doing is assemble one from parts... kind of like Lego for adults.  And later on if you change your mind on something, you can dis-assemble it fairly easily and put something else on.  It's just money...  

[Jaggy13]

As Evans pointed out, there are a lot of factors to consider. Thats why my rifle has taken over a year to build up.
I stared with what Ii had and changed things that I felt would help my performance.
I just put a Jard trigger in because I finally feel like I have earned it.
I took a class from TG last spring. That was very helpful.
My personal view is to train first and find equipment that compliments my style.
I found that a good compensator was higher on my list than a trigger.


I don't have an 18" barrel, mostly because I haven't needed it. Someday that may make the list.
to quote TG "3 things that make a good 3gun rifle. Glass, trigger, Free float hand guard".

Once you nail those down the rest is really prefference and cosmetic.

Just like Evans, I run a 12" hand guard and would like a longer one. I'll probably get a 15" one of these days.

I tend to keep things a little more simple than some. It's easy to get lost in it and end up with a rifle that you expect to drop you off at work and pack you a lunch...

[luvmy45]

I tend to keep things a little more simple than some. It's easy to get lost in it and end up with a rifle that you expect to drop you off at work and pack you a lunch...

  Ain't that the truth!

[donm]

That's what I seem to running into is that there are so many rifle makers and such a variety of parts you can go crazy trying to figure what you want. I know Evans is not going to be there next weekend but the following weekend I would like to sit down and talk to you about making a plane to build a rifle. Discuss parts I will need and where to get them. I will feed you lunch either at my house or a resurant, your choice. I can start buying parts as I can afford it and when I get enough together to build the upper or lower them maybe you can help me out. Good luck at the Utah state shoot. Did you get your Trojan back? working?

[dutch1911]

I second everything Evans said. He's on top of his shit.
I'm a Colt armorer and also would be more than willing to help. If you're looking to build put a wish list together, I have a discounted account with brownells... More than willing to help out!

Dutch1911
1/*
Black Talon Defensive Dynamics LLC.

[donm]

Thanks. after I sit down with Evans to make a list I might get hold of you for some stuff.

[Jaggy13]

Thanks. after I sit down with Evans to make a list I might get hold of you for some stuff.

I think he is running a Kimber while the Trojan is down. I offered to go shoot for him...

Something tells me he will do just fine.

For what it's worth, Carhartfarmer is in my opinion the best budget builder on here.
That guy is always giving me good ideas.

Your on the right track. take your time and you'll be very happy with the end result!

[ekuo]

Dean fitted a new Kart barrel on my STI and I broke it in this weekend.  It locks up pretty tight but started to loosen up a little by 300-ish rounds.  Pretty damn accurate as well.  Dean is the man!  

The feed ramp needs some cutting and polishing so SWC's feed reliably, but in the meantime I loaded up some 230 gr RN bullets and it feeds those just fine.  

Don, I can give you a list of parts that I used and where I got them, but they aren't the only ones out there and there might be some equally good manufacturers that others have had good luck with.  In the meantime you might swing by Sawtac and see what parts Jeff has in stock.  

One thing you might consider is building the upper first since you already have the lower, then when time and money allow put together the lower.  I'll bring mine to the Emmett match.  

[ekuo]

IIRC, I started my AR project by picking the barrel first.  That told me what size gas block I needed and how long of a hand guard to get... Plus the barrel is the heart and soul of the rifle so invest now and it'll pay dividends down the road (save money elsewhere like with a $60 buttstock instead of a $250 one).

One barrel that I looked at were ones from Bravo Company, this one in particular:  http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-18-SPR-SS410-Barrel-with-Rifle-Length-Gas-p/bcm-recbrl%2018ss.htm

Unfortunately it's currently out of stock, but has everything you want such as the twist, gas system, length, diameter, cut with the M4 feed ramps, and is HPT and MPI'd.  I almost got this barrel, but it was out of stock back then.  It has a .750" diameter at the gas block, so that is the magical number when selecting a gas block.  

Another choice is JP Enterprise, which is the barrel I went with.  It cost a little more, but buy once cry once...  http://www.jprifles.com/1.4.1_barrel.php

Mine is the 18" .223 Wylde barrel and it came with an adjustable gas block and compensator (about $150 worth of stuff), plus they machine the comp so it is blended to the barrel and evenly clocked.  I shot the Bennie Cooley tactical comp for a while, then swapped it out for a PWS FSC556 because I found I could control the gun better with the PWS comp. 

This ought to keep you busy for a little!  

[No-One]

I have an 18 inch upper with a VTAC handguard on my AR . I can't remember what the profile on the barrel is but it is not an HBAR . If you wanted to let your wife check it out your welcome to bring her over . I personally think the JP/VTAC handguard is the best there is for overall versatility and ergonomics .

[ekuo]

Since we're on the subject of hand guards:

This is what I have:  http://www.jprifles.com/1.4.4_hg.php

Mine is the 12.5" length, but as mentioned before if I was to do it over again I'd go with the 15.5" version.  Its not that I have super long arms, but the way I grip the rifle, I index off the end of the hand guard and sometimes the fingers of my support hand come into contact with the gas block (yeow, it's HOT!).  

I'm pretty sure Brownell's sells this hand guard as well.  Yup, they do:  
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=22876/Product/AR-15-M16-AR-STYLE-JP-MODULAR-HANDGUARD-SYSTEM

Another option is the Troy TRX Extreme Battlerail.  Troy makes two models of the Battlerail: the standard which is a quad rail, and the Extreme which only has a rail on top.  It also comes in 11", 13" or 15".  I'd go with the 13" or 15".  I think Jeff may have these at his shop, or Brownells also carries them: http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=38853/Product/AR-15-M16-TRX-BATTLERAIL

I'd be curious to know if the Troy was lighter than the JP-VTAC.  

[ekuo]

Gas Blocks:

I have the JPGS-3 gas block with piccatinny rail because at one point I thought I was going to mount a flip up front sight on it.  That didn't happen.  The JPGS-3 gas block has an interior diameter of .936" which is the same diameter of the barrel at the gas block on the JP barrel I bought.  If you end up with another barrel, say the Bravo Company barrel which has a .750" diameter, the JPGS-1 or JPGS-5 would fit.  If you wanted a low-profile gas block that fits under a long FF hand guard, go with the JPGS-5. 

http://www.jprifles.com/1.4.6_gs.php

The JP gas blocks have an adjustment screw that restricts how much gas is going into the gas tube to the gas key on the BCG, which is a nice feature since I think I read somewhere that most D-I AR rifles are over-gassed to begin with. 

But if you're wanting other options, Bravo Company sells some low profile gas blocks:  http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/AR15-M4-Barrel-Parts-s/4.htm  Scroll down for gas blocks by LaRue, Knights, Vltor, Stag...

[Nealio]

One barrel that I looked at were ones from Bravo Company, this one in particular:  http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-18-SPR-SS410-Barrel-with-Rifle-Length-Gas-p/bcm-recbrl%2018ss.htm

That is the barrel I have.  You're welcome to shoot/fondle/inspect it any time Don.

I run the cheapest gas block I could find.  I think its a Yankee Hill. 

[carharttfarmer]

if your building on a budget and want a 18inch this is the cheapest option
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/431749/dpms-barrel-ar-15-556x45mm-nato-heavy-contour-1-in-8-twist-18-stainless-steel-black-pre-ban
its what i use and have no problem getting sub 1 inch groups so i dont see the need for a 250-500 barrel for 3 gun
for a 16ich this ones nice and light to
http://shop.nordiccomp.com/Wilson-Nordic-AR-Rifle-Barrel-Stainless-16-BBL-223-16M-WIL.htm
have it an have no problem getting sub 1 inch groups out of it either
IMO i dont see the need for an adujustable gas block unless your going to spend the money for a light wieght bolt carrier to
for forearms if you want a 15 inch long one this one from nordic is the cheapest price wise but they make top notch stuff
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/287064/nordic-components-slotted-customizable-free-float-tube-handguard-ar-15-extended-rifle-length-aluminum-black
but just about any free float forearm will do the job hell my 3gun rifle has a $35 model 1 that i drilled vent holes in

as far as bolts/bolt carriers i havent seen much differnce chrome ones wipe off easy but cleaning any of them isnt that hard the rock river for 130 has always worked for me

 

[ghengiskhabb]

What are the preferred muzzle devices? All I have are standard A2 birdcages.

[Jaggy13]

cody is the man!
Thats the forend I'm probably going to buy myself for my birthday.

My view on gas blocks and bolt carriers is just get good enough.
Later if you want to upgrade, you can keep the other as a backup.
Afterall thats the name of the game, keep the rifle running and its a lot easier to place higher!

[tgibson]

What are the preferred muzzle devices? All I have are standard A2 birdcages.

PWS FSC 556.  I have a couple of extras if you'd like to try it out.  I also have Surefire's, Cooley's, Miciluck's, Nordic's, Go Gas'....several others.
Adios,
TG

[J Mack]

Thanks guys. I appreciate all the input. I looked at JP and they are out of my price range. I also looked at LaRue and they are closer but I don't know much about them.
Thanks again.

Take a look at the PWS Wraith 3-Gun Rifle if you're still considering a complete rifle.
I hear one of the local High Speed 3-Gun guys had allot of input on the combination of parts and this particular guy is known for being hard on parts. If it works for him it's good enough for me.



http://primaryweapons.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=318&idcategory=28

[donm]

Wow, thanks for all the info. I have been doing some looking on my own but you guys mentioned places and brands I didn't know about. I will start checking out the links you nicely provided. I am planing on being at the Jan 1st event so maybe I can check some of your guns there. You guys are the greatest. I don't have an unlimited budget so I have to be reasonable. I really like the handguard on the JP. They also have light weight BCG's and standard. What I am thinking is building the upper pretty soon and the lower as money permits. I'm not real familiar with the AR construction so if I buy a barrel how do you mount it to the reciever? Still not sure what reciever to get. I did see the low profile gas blocks and I like the idea of hiding them under the handguard. Who's muzzle break to get? I am not sure what all parts I need for the upper. This is harder than buying a truck... I never thought to look on Midway for parts or Brownells. So for now I will be checking on the links. Thanks a bunch.

[Jaggy13]

PWS FSC 556.  I have a couple of extras if you'd like to try it out.  I also have Surefire's, Cooley's, Miciluck's, Nordic's, Go Gas'....several others.
Adios,
TG

That's the one a lot of us use. For good reason, it rocks! and it's local.
There are a bunch of great comp's out there and once compensated, there's marginal improvements after that. (in my opinion anyway)

as for barrels and fitting to uppers, make sure to match up m4 cuts or no m4 cuts in the barrel and upper receiver.
other than that, your for-end will come with the barrel nut. It all just slides together. not really much to it. I'm sure you'll have someone experienced with the correct tools when you are ready for final assembly.

The only other decision I think is important to make before buying anything is if you care if the upper and lower "fit". It's not an issue for me, but some people are nuts about them fitting snugly with no rattle.
If you build an upper first and through a lower at it later, it will be tougher to find a mate.


[/quote]

[ekuo]

Wow, thanks for all the info. I have been doing some looking on my own but you guys mentioned places and brands I didn't know about. I will start checking out the links you nicely provided. I am planing on being at the Jan 1st event so maybe I can check some of your guns there. You guys are the greatest. I don't have an unlimited budget so I have to be reasonable.

I really like the handguard on the JP. They also have light weight BCG's and standard.  I'm running a standard weight BCG, and so far no issues even with the gas block turned down.

What I am thinking is building the upper pretty soon and the lower as money permits. I'm not real familiar with the AR construction so if I buy a barrel how do you mount it to the reciever? In short,  you insert the barrel into the end of the receiver, index it with the notch, then screw on the barrel nut and tighten it to spec with a torque wrench to hold it in place.  Most FF hand guards, such as the JP VTac have its own proprietary barrel nut that you also use to attach the hand guard.  So if you buy the JP Vtac, you'll also get the barrel nut.  I have the barrel wrench, upper receiver vice block, and torque wrench.  I also have the roll pin punches.  

Still not sure what reciever to get. Just get one.  Spikes, Yankee Hill, DPMS, RRA, Mega... Jeff probably has one or more in stock at his shop on Chinden.  RK may as well.  Just make sure you get a flat top so you can mount your scope on the PEPR, and that has the M4 cuts if the barrel you select has them (and most will).  

I did see the low profile gas blocks and I like the idea of hiding them under the handguard. Who's muzzle break to get?  Like TG said, PWS's FCS556 comp.  

I am not sure what all parts I need for the upper.  If you buy a stripped upper, you'll need:  dust cover and rod, the bolt forward assist thing-a-ma-jig, charging handle, FF hand guard, gas block and gas tube, and barrel.  The milspec barrel nuts are only if you go with a non free float hand guard like on the M16 or M4.  

This is harder than buying a truck... That's only because you haven't assembled one yet.  Besides, if you can follow those instructions for putting together a garage door, you can assemble an AR.  

I never thought to look on Midway for parts or Brownells. So for now I will be checking on the links. Thanks a bunch.

Check out the How-to videos on Brownell's website.  Hunker in for half an hour or so, and just watch them straight thru.  Then do a second re-run to take more specific notes.  I learned quite a bit from watching that series, but some of it doesn't apply since of you build this rifle from parts you won't be dismantling/replacing stuff on an existing rifle.  

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=11004/guntechdetail/How_to_Build_An_AR-15_Video

[tgibson]

I really like the handguard on the JP.

I have to tell you, I am a diehard JP fan.  Heck, I'm sponsored by them!!  (got the sweetest .260 gas gun you've ever seen).  With that being said, look at the Daniel Defense forend.  It is REALLY light and putting sections of rail on and off are the quickest I've ever seen.  From one spot to the next total time is about 30 seconds...that's not exaggerating either.  It's the heat.  And it's strong.
Adios,
TG 

[dutch1911]

Pick your parts, spend some time on them and do plenty of research.  You certainly don't have to spend big bucks to have a rockin' rifle.
I've recently finished all my upgrades on my Colt 6920... for now anyway.  But, I'm a Colt Armorer and nailed a rockin' price on my rifle.
I went from a Bone Stock 6920...



To This...



Enjoy the journey... Spend where it counts... and be ware of the buy this buy that you need this you need that recommendations.
When it comes to weapons... everyone has an opinion... and they're likely all different.  Unless there's a D.I. in the room... then it's what he likes!

Oooh Raah!

Dutch1911
1/*
Black Talon Defensive Dynamics LLC.

[luvmy45]

Good looking rifle! Which forend is that and what is the bbl length?

For 3 gun, which the OP asked about, I think you'll find you want a comp and the AFG just gets in the way using barricades and tables to shoot from, and the optic needs a little more versatility.

I'd be remiss to not point that out 

[Nealio]

the AFG just gets in the way using barricades and tables to shoot from

I disagree.  In face I think the AFG helps shooting off barricades.  It gives you more options for height and you can put the AFG in front of the barricade to push against to stabilize your rifle.
Plus it helps your shooting platform off shoulder.

[attachment=1]

[luvmy45]

I disagree.  In face I think the AFG helps shooting off barricades.  It gives you more options for height and you can put the AFG in front of the barricade to push against to stabilize your rifle.

Nice!

I see a lot more shooting off of flat top tables or spools, where the foreend is just laid down flat... in which case the AFG props is up and isn't as stable as just being flat... like we did on Saturday.

But, it is the shooters choice, if it works for ya, go for it... I just don't see the good 3 gunners using them alot.

I do like the forward grip, which is why I want a longer bbl and fore end, it does stabilize the gun more.

[dutch1911]

My rifle is built to be combat ready just like my pistols and shotgun. I won't change anything for competition. As comp isn't a life saving endeavor. I adapt and over come. I teach LE and private sector with what I run. I know the setups well and they conform to me and my needs well.
The Aimpoint PRO optic is beautifully versatile... Rethink your thoughts on engagements.  However I will agree if I'm engaging beyond 400 I might want something more... But the reality of it is... Effectiveness of said round on a human Target is not as effective in reducing the Target as my other options...
The barrel is not an HBAR. its contoured 16" 1/7 twist mil spec.
Daniel Defense modular free float.

Dutch1911
1/*

[dutch1911]

Nice!

I see a lot more shooting off of flat top tables or spools, where the foreend is just laid down flat... in which case the AFG props is up and isn't as stable as just being flat... like we did on Saturday.

But, it is the shooters choice, if it works for ya, go for it... I just don't see the good 3 gunners using them alot.

I do like the forward grip, which is why I want a longer bbl and fore end, it does stabilize the gun more.
Interestingly enough shooting in that manner goes against many basic combat principles.
But I won't impose those on you here. Many folks shoot in different ways... IMHO... I believe to be... Less combat effective. But so be it.

[luvmy45]

My rifle is built to be combat ready just like my pistols and shotgun. I won't change anything for competition. As comp isn't a life saving endeavor. I adapt and over come. I teach LE and private sector with what I run. I know the setups well and they conform to me and my needs well.

Dutch, Dutch, Dutch... Read the subject line... you want to talk about how to run an AR for LEO use or combat effectivness that's fine, but that's not what he asked about, he asked about 3 gun. 

3 Gun is not combat, it's not training, it's not tactically right... but it's a heck of a lot of fun, and while your setup would be ok in 3gun, it is not optimal, which is what this post is about.

Nothing wrong with how you setup and run your gun, but we're talking about 3 gun here, and it is different. You should come out and try it sometime! I know other LEO's on here that shoot 3 gun and have a lot of fun!

I say this with a big grin on my face  I'm not dissing you, just keeping it on topic...

[RGinIdaho]

Dutch's rifle would definitely compete well in Limited.

Shoot Tac Optics and a bit of magnification makes a difference.

Nice rifle Dutch.

[Nealio]

Nice!

I see a lot more shooting off of flat top tables or spools, where the foreend is just laid down flat... in which case the AFG props is up and isn't as stable as just being flat... like we did on Saturday.

But, it is the shooters choice, if it works for ya, go for it... I just don't see the good 3 gunners using them alot.

I do like the forward grip, which is why I want a longer bbl and fore end, it does stabilize the gun more.

Yeah off a flat surface, its not optimal, that's for sure.  But I like shooting free-hand with it so much that I make it work..

[dutch1911]

I hear ya Nealio I'm right there faith you.
Soooo I took a look at PWS the comp is a bit spendy. And looking at it I'm guessing a high signature in low light. What are the benefits#???

[Nealio]

Soooo I took a look at PWS the comp is a bit spendy. And looking at it I'm guessing a high signature in low light. What are the benefits#???

The FSC556 actually is a flash suppressing compensator.  Jaggy and I have shot them at twilight and the flash looks like a tiny ember the size of a match head glowing inside the comp.
I don't know how bright their straight compensator (without the flash suppression) is in low light.

The advantage is it reduces muzzle climb and allows you faster and more accurate follow up shots.  I never though an AR15 had any "kick" to begin with, but with a compensated one you can squeeze the trigger pretty fast and your shots will stay on target.

This is a good read for anyone who hasn't seen it.  The Primary Weapons comp is listed as the "PWS DNTC" (Dave Neth Tactical Comp ?)

http://www.multigunmedia.com/ar15-comps-pt-2.pdf

[dutch1911]

Thank you...
I didn't mean to hijack your thread... Meanwhile... Back to the O.P.

Dutch

[Jaggy13]

I've shot it in pitch black a couple of times, it does just look like a lit match turned on it's side.

They are expensive. (Ironic statement coming from a guy that shoots colt...)
I won mine at a match.
It does have some serious concussion and keeps the barrel flatter than most.
Like I said earlier in the thread, Once compensated I really believe there are only marginal returns to be gained by "better comps". I have another version that doesn't have the flash hider that TG gave me for a steal. Worked just as well.

Come out and give it a test drive sometime.

[ekuo]

So Don,
All the thread drifts aside, how're you coming along with your info gathering?  The various bits and bobs that go into an AR starting to make sense?  

I think we've given you options for barrels, comps, hand guards, and gas blocks.  

I guess the next two areas to cover are BCG and charging handles.

Bolt Carrier Group (BCG):  I have a BCG from FailZero that was EXO coated.  Reputably it doesn't need as much lube or can be shot an obscene number of times before it needs more lube.  Couldn't say if that is true since the most I've shot at any one time was 350-ish rounds before it was cleaned, and I run my bolts fairly wet.  
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=27448/Product/AR-15-BOLT-CARRIER-GROUP

Can you get by one a cheaper one?  I'm sure you could.  Plenty of people are running other brands of BCG's with good success.  Brownells or Bravo Company carries quite a few options for BCG's.  Just make sure it is MPI inspected and that the gas key is staked correctly to make sure the allen screws don't back out on you during firing.  As far as one that is chromed or coated... if you can afford it, I'd say go for it.  If not, just run it wet and you'll probably be fine.  Raul told me he has a plain-Jane BCG that he had coated with ionbond (by somebody locally), and he's testing it out to see how long he can go without cleaning before he gets a failure.  

I don't have any experience with the reduced weight ones such as from JP or Young.  The theory is a lighter weight BCG needs less gas to operate, which translates into less force reciprocating back and forth as the bolt is cycled but you'll need to experiment with different weight buffers to get the right combo to run correctly.  I haven't played around with this yet, though the idea intrigues me.  But not enough to spend a bunch of money to buy a lightened BCG and different weight buffers to try it out.  Maybe someday.  For now, the standard weight BCG and buffer seem to be working for me.  

You can buy a complete BCG which includes the bolt, carrier, gas key, firing pin, cam pin, extractor, springs, gas rings, etc... or you can buy them separately.  But with all the manufacturers selling complete BCG's, I'd go that route.  

Charging Handles:  TG showed me the Tac-Latch charging handle that he uses, and all it took was a couple of racks and I was sold (literally).  http://www.techwearusa.com/product_details.asp?id=68

The Tac-Latch has an extension on the handle that allows you to get a good grip with your right hand, in addition to the normal operation using your left hand.  Most of the time I use my left, but every now and then the right hand is needed to clear a jam or something when you need to manipulate the bolt catch with your left hand.  Plus, it is extended out to the rightside of the gun, as opposed to the Badger Ordnance extended handle which protrudes to the left.  I found that when carrying the rifle on a sling, anything that extends to the left pokes you in the gut or chest.  Not comfy.  

As far as other options, Bravo Company makes one called the Gunfighter that is reported to be very robust and comes with some oversized charging latches.  I've heard of people bending their charging handle from vigorous slamming in order to clear a jam, and that'll ruin your entire day if it bends!  http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/AR-15-Upper-Receiver-Bolt-Carrier-Parts-s/2.htm

[tgibson]

I have another version that doesn't have the flash hider that TG gave me for a steal.

I've got more....
Adios,
TG

[tgibson]

Charging Handles:  TG showed me the Tac-Latch charging handle that he uses, and all it took was a couple of racks and I was sold (literally).  http://www.techwearusa.com/product_details.asp?id=68

The Tac-Latch has an extension on the handle that allows you to get a good grip with your right hand, in addition to the normal operation using your left hand.  Most of the time I use my left, but every now and then the right hand is needed to clear a jam or something when you need to manipulate the bolt catch with your left hand.  Plus, it is extended out to the rightside of the gun, as opposed to the Badger Ordnance extended handle which protrudes to the left.  I found that when carrying the rifle on a sling, anything that extends to the left pokes you in the gut or chest.  Not comfy. 

I've got these too...
Adios,
TG

[donm]

I have been doing some research and watching the videos on brownells. I feel like I'm cramming for a test on stuff that wasn't covered in class. You have all been a big help and I need to talk to TG about some parts. I haven't decided on a barrel yet but it is a toss up now between the one from BC and JP. I need to do some more looking at BCG's and the TAC-Latch CH. The handle sounds like what I want. I was thinking I might give the lightend BCG from JP a try but still wishy washy on that. The reciever is what I am mostly scratching my head on now. There are SOOOOOO many out there, which one to get? Is there really any difference in them? You have given great info on all the stuff to put in one but not much on the receiver itself. I can't wait to start ordering parts!!!! Hopefully next month maybe get a reciever and door and assist and if I go with the BC barrel get it on order. Hey TG, what do you think of the heat disipators from JP for the barrel? For 3-gun would it be a good idea to get one?
Thank you to all you guys. I'm one the right track I think.

[luvmy45]

Any guy that builds a gun for 3 gun is on the right track!!! 

Grab some ammo and come out to the New's Years day match, I'll let you shoot mine, and I'm sure there's probably other that would too!

bk

[ekuo]

Actually, for the New Years Day MoM match, Don's Remington AR with the scope will probably do him just fine!  I've seen him shoot and he spun the spinner with that gun at 80-ish yds at the July match.  Unless TG changes the venue with close and far targets on the same stage, Don's existing rifle and scope combo would be a good setup for a fixed range plate rack at 85-ish yds. 

Don, most of our 3gun stages call for 10 to 40 rounds, so not much heat build up to the point where heat dissipation is really needed IMO.  Certainly not for the winter matches... 

[ekuo]

The reciever is what I am mostly scratching my head on now. There are SOOOOOO many out there, which one to get? Is there really any difference in them? You have given great info on all the stuff to put in one but not much on the receiver itself.

Don, check this one out:  http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Upper-Receiver-Assembly-M4-Flat-Top-demo-p/flat%20top%20-upper%20-m4%20demo.htm

Decent price, good brand reputation, and it's even in stock.  Looks like it comes with the forward assist, and ejection port cover and hinge rod.  All you have to do is assemble.  As long as all the holes are in the correct location, you should be good to go. 

[tgibson]

Don, most of our 3gun stages call for 10 to 40 rounds, so not much heat build up to the point where heat dissipation is really needed IMO.  Certainly not for the winter matches... 

^^^^^ this. On the barrel, go with the JP. Quality gear and huge supporters of the shooting sports.
Adios
TG

[dutch1911]

Drifting again... TH... We need a three gun pic thread... This is all new to me also. I'm very curiosity.

[dsa]

This is a great thread as I am in the market for a 3gun rifle myself.  What do you guys think about a 16" barrel w/ a midlength gas system?  I found a rifle that might be a good starting point and the price is right.

[Jaggy13]

Thats what I run Dave.

[dsa]

Jaggy, how do you like it?  Anything you would change?  I realy want a PWS Wraith but for less than the price of the Wraith I can get this rifle I am currently looking at (Spike's Tactical Upper & Lower, DD 12" rail, Young NM bolt, 16" SS 1:8 twist barrel) and a Vortex Viper.  I think I am going to pick it up.

[luvmy45]

I currently have a 16" as well, not sure what length gas system? But it works well for me, the rifle will still out shoot me.

Just my personal preference, as posted earlier, I want an 18" with a longer hand-guard so I can get my hand out farther.

Let's put it this way, you can run any gun you want, and have a lot of fun and be good at it, it's after you shoot for a while, that you realize the gun isn't what makes the shooter, but that there are certain pieces of equipment that will make the shooter perform better.

The fun part is figuring out how to answer the question... as it never ends...

[No-One]

This was my first 3-gun rifle a RRA Varminter that I shortened to 18 inches . It was way too heavy but accurate as hell .



This is a Les Baer Ultimate IPSC rifle I owned that again was way to heavy for a 3-gun rifle due to the full bull barrel . I was kind of surprised that something that was built as a racegun was really this unwieldy . The fit and finish were awesome and it was a absolute tackdriver but it wasn't nice enough to justify the 2400 dollar price tag in my opinion .



This is a Del-Ton kit gun I built and then replaced the barrel with a White Oak Armament and the handguard with a Larue knockoff . The barrel was a 16 inch recon and this rifle was very handy for 3-gun but I really didn't care for the butt stock on it .



Another Del-Ton 16 inch . I hated the handguard on this rifle as it was way to big around .



I don't have any pictures of my current setup but will try and get some up later .

[ekuo]

This is a great thread as I am in the market for a 3gun rifle myself.  What do you guys think about a 16" barrel w/ a midlength gas system?  I found a rifle that might be a good starting point and the price is right.

Dave,
If the price is right, I don't see why not.  The only reason we're pushing Don in the direction of an 18" is because he's contemplating building one from parts, and might as well benefit from being able to run a rifle length gas system.  Not sure that is possible with a 16".    

But for a used gun that is already set up with a 16", if you like it run with it and change out stuff you don't like later.  Plenty of folks banging away with a 16" in 3gun and doing quite well at it.  Mid-length gas is better than carbine length IMO.  Got any pics?

  

[Nealio]

Ill bring mine out to the USPSA match Saturday if anyone wanted to check it out.

[dsa]

Nealio,
Thanks, I would love to check it out but one of my boys has a wrestling tournament on Saturday maybe next time.

Evans,
It's actually a new gun at HawkTech, they have a couple of them and the price seems GTG $1150.  It gets me in the game and seems like a good base to expand on as I figure stuff out.

[donm]

Thanks Evans and TG, I was looking at those recievers but didn't know anything about them. I guess demos are probably assembeled but not used then disassembled later so this should be fine. SO what weight barrel? Thin or medium contour? Laening toward medium as that is what JP ofers in a kit with the low profile gas block and tube.

[donm]

Well, I guess it has started. Just ordered the receiver. Now I'm commited. Barrel or bolt next month I think.

[RGinIdaho]

I currently have a 16" as well, not sure what length gas system? But it works well for me, the rifle will still out shoot me.

Just my personal preference, as posted earlier, I want an 18" with a longer hand-guard so I can get my hand out farther.

Let's put it this way, you can run any gun you want, and have a lot of fun and be good at it, it's after you shoot for a while, that you realize the gun isn't what makes the shooter, but that there are certain pieces of equipment that will make the shooter perform better.

The fun part is figuring out how to answer the question... as it never ends...

Summed up nicely. 

[tgibson]

Jaggy, how do you like it?  Anything you would change?  I realy want a PWS Wraith but for less than the price of the Wraith I can get this rifle I am currently looking at (Spike's Tactical Upper & Lower, DD 12" rail, Young NM bolt, 16" SS 1:8 twist barrel) and a Vortex Viper.  I think I am going to pick it up.

I'll let you take mine for a testdrive if you'd like...but plan on buying one if you do.   
Adios,
TG

[Jaggy13]

Jaggy, how do you like it?  Anything you would change?  I realy want a PWS Wraith but for less than the price of the Wraith I can get this rifle I am currently looking at (Spike's Tactical Upper & Lower, DD 12" rail, Young NM bolt, 16" SS 1:8 twist barrel) and a Vortex Viper.  I think I am going to pick it up.

Honestly, I love my rifle. The only thing I have on my list is to change the forend.
I am currently running a 12 inch and would like a 15. It's a want not need thing so it's low on the financial priority list.

I opted for a 16" mainly to reduce nose weight. Shooting offhand has always one of my weaknesses for rifle. My actual weakness is lack of patience which also translates into me yanking on the trigger at distance as well. An 18" barrel won't help me with me get hits at range if I can't "squeeze" the trigger.

Also knowing that this would just be 1 of many to come AR's... I thought it a good length to start with and by the time I knew what I actually needed/wanted I would just build another. ( I was also in the right place at the right time and fell into the barrel I have, that didn't hurt my feelings too much)

Travis is like a surgeon using a scalpel with his rifle, I'm more like a butcher wielding a meat cleaver... Maybe someday I'll be able to take advantage of more precision equipment 

Lastly, That rifle he has, the Wraith... I'm pretty sure it has the powers of Medusa. I suggest not looking directly at it...

[dutch1911]

What time and where tomorrow Gents???

[luvmy45]

Nampa out door range... www.nragc.org

setup around 8:30 shooting at 10... it' winter.

[dutch1911]

My apologies... The wife had... "Other" plans for me this morning !

[donm]

Just an update on my progress. I have the reciever, a Bravo Comp demo unit. It has a few marks on the rail but no where else and it comes with the dorr and forward assist but I have to put them on. I bought the Bravo Comp BCG. The Barrel finally got off back order so it's on it's way here. It's the 410SS 18" from Bravo Comp. The gas tube is comming with the barrel. The rest will come as money allows. I really appreciate all the advice and sugestions you all gave.

thanks
don

[ekuo]

Don,
Good deal!  Give me a shout when you're ready to mount the bbl.  Unless the FF tube you end up with requires a proprietary wrench, I should have everything that you'll need to put the upper together. 

[Jaggy13]

Awesome!
Can't wait to see this thing in action!
I may have an extra FF tube laying around if you need one to get you by until the final choice is made.

[donm]

Thanks guys. I am just getting a peice at a time and can't wait to get it all together. It won't take long and thank you Evans for helping with the tools. Thanks Jaggy for the offer but I will wait until I get all the peices I want before putting it together. It's like a kid waiting for Christmas but it's a few months away. This is fun once you understand how to go about doing it. Everyone was so helpful with advise. Heading to range in a minute to sight in my new scope, Burris XTR. I'm going to miss the 9X of the old scope but for up close it will be much better than the 3X I had.

[donm]

Update:
I went to Evans house today and he helped me put the upper together. The gas block was missing the roll pin so he called Robert of RK at home and he came down to the shop and set me up with a roll pin. Thanks Robert. We got it all put together and went to the range. After applying more lube and adjusting the gas block it shoots great. Lighter than the Remington upper and the Nordic FF tube feels good and its light. The PWS muzzle brake / flash hider works very well. I can't wait to work up som loads for it. I put the Leupold 3 X 9 on it for shooting groups and will mount the Burris XTR after that. I guess I need to start working on getting the lower parts together. Weather allowing I will try to test some loads next Sunday. A big thank you to Evans for the help and to all of you that gave me input on the build components. I will give another update after I get some loads for it.

[Jaggy13]

That's awesome don!
Cant wait to see her in action... Btw this thread is worthless without pics!

[donm]

I will bring it this Saturday. Looks like most other rifles. Put the leupold 3 X 9 on it to shoot groups then I will put the other scope back on. I will be trying Varget, IMR 4895, BL-C(2), Win 748, IMR 3031 all in 55 gr and 69 gr loads. 3 quick shots at 100 yds the other day with my current laod was just over an inch and could have done better if I took my time. I have high hopes for this one, feels really nice. As money allows I will get parts for the lower. I hope it's nice Sunday so I can shoot the test loads. Anyone want to keep me company for a day at the range (Emmett)?

[donm]

OK, here is an attempt at pictures. If this turns out then I will post more in the toy thread.

[donm]

oop's, there was supposed to be one from each side so here is the other side.

[dwood4215]

If you are still looking at a complete rifle you may want to look at the Stag 3G. BK is shooting one, and I just received mine. They are hard to find right now, but are a sweet setup. 18" Stainless barrel, 1:8 twist, Magpul ACS stock, Samson 15" free float hand guard - really nice. Gisselle 3G hybrid trigger - which is really sweet, an rifle length gas system. I added a Vortex Razor HD scope and the Dueck RTS sights.

[tgibson]

Got word today that PWS now has Wraiths in stock.
Adios
TG

[donm]

Would like to  but I can't afford to lay all the money out at once. When I'm done it will be sweet.