Topic: Need advice on new 3-gun rifle

[donm]

I messed up. I let my wife shoot my AR15 and now she wants it and wants to sell her Browning Micro Medalion .223. The stock on my lower is a little long for her so I figure I could keep the lower and get her one with the adjustable butt. SO the question is what upper should I get for me and which lower for her. I have the Remingtom VTR camoflage so another upper may not look right but I don't care about looks as much as function and I don't think she cares either. There are so many out there to choose from you can go crazy trying to pick one.

thanks
don

[avking]

If you want a rifle for 3-Gun, then you want a JP. By far the most popular choice in 3 Gun shooting. I have owned two and have never shot any other ar-15 that even came close to the JP.

[dutch1911]

I'll see your np and raise you my Colt on reliability and combat ability.
There is no need to start off with that kind if money. However if you have it and want to toss it in the wind.. feel free..
I recommend Colts 6920...
 Dutch1911
1/*

[Jaggy13]

take the upper your buying a lower for down to sawtac or ambush and see if any of their lowers fit snuggly. Both have great prices on lowers.Thats where ai would tell ya to start. I use an acuwedge but that fit is important to some.
If that lower is already a good fit for your upper just change the stock and keep it for your build and get a matched upper and lower together.

check out a bunch of rifle at the new years match and see what you like. Nelio and I have similar but different length rifles, and others like BK and Evans have nice setup's as well.

[ekuo]

Don,
Why not assemble everything from parts?  That way you put on exactly what you want and nothing that you don't. 

There's a lot of personal preference in rifles, and what works for one may not work for another.  But where I think it is worth investing the cash is in the barrel, BCG, trigger, and a free float tube since we seem to shoot off barricades a lot.  The rest is fairly vanilla. 

In 3-gun you want something that can handle close and long distance shooting, so its kind of a compromise between the two.  An 18" barrel fits the bill pretty good, though some do well with a 16".  I've got most of the tools to put one together, so let me know if you go this route. 

-EKuo

[luvmy45]

Currently I use a RRA with a 16" M4 configured AR... it's pretty much stock and the rifle works well for me... my failing thus far in 3 gun, are not the rifle's fault... just mine. 

I'm kinda in the same boat, as now that I've shot some 3 gun matches, and handled a bunch of different guns, I think I know what I what for my 3 gun needs. I have an adjustable stock, I'm good with that. Things I want for 3 gun are:

1. Trigger - Jard or Geisslle , whichever I find the best deal on

2. 18" barrell with VTAC/JP free float handguard - smooth, no rails (I hate rails) I want my hand farther forward for stability. and the 18" does this for me.

3. Optics - the more I shoot the better the optics need to be. I started with a Millett DMS - Just put a Vortex PST on yesterday, and I'm loving it so far... try a bunch of different types of glass and see what works for you. You need to be able to do holdovers without thinking. 100, 200, 300, 400 and even a few 500 for bonus stuff.

There's my Christmas wish list, might have to print this out and give it to the wife. 

[donm]

Thanks guys. I appreciate all the input. I looked at JP and they are out of my price range. I also looked at LaRue and they are closer but I don't know much about them. I think my real problem is that I don't know what all the accronims mean yet and there are just so many options out there. if I built one up with parts I would need some help on even knowing where to start and where to go for parts. I have a 22" barrel and it is too long for up close so been concidering an 18". I would like SS with probably a medium contour posibly fluted but I like the JP barrel cooler. I also like the smooth hand guard fairly long. I just ordered the Burris TXR Extreme 1 X 4 and P.E.P.S mount. Hopefully they will be here in time to get them mounted and sighted in for Jan. 1st match. I have read a bunch on barrel twist rate and bullet weight and it doesn't seem to match up in real life so all that is confusing. I had RK put a spring kit in the current trigger and it is way better than the stock setup. I shot it yesturday and it felt real good. Tried out some 68gr loads and the best group was 2" and that was the slowest load @ around 2700 fps. The ones I loaded with 55gr get there best group @ about 2900 fps @ about 1/2" and it gets bigger above and below that. Last but not least I worked up some new loads for my pistol. Was shooting 5.3gr Unique because that was work worked in the begining when they were 1.18 col. Since then I have shortend them up to 1.125 and never re-checked on the cronograph. I knew they had to be to hot so I loaded some different ones and shot them. 5.0gr was at 993 fps. never shot the 5.3gr, I forgot to take some with me. Ended up at 4.8gr was a little high and 4.6gr was right on the verge of not making it so I'm loading 4.7gr now. I have a lot of bullets to pull and have been working on that. Originally I started with Montana Gold HP and at 1.18 col and 5.3 gr they were 930 fps. After shortening them to 1.125 now they are at 996 fps so I will be pulling them also. The new ones I got from Jaggy loaded with 5.2gr was on the verge of not making it. The JFP are .024" shorter than the lead and haven't pulled a MG to check length. Looks like all will use a different load because mainly bullet length.
I would like to talk to Evans more about building a gun from parts.
Thanks again.

[ekuo]

Well, this is going to be somewhat biased because it is based on what I did, but here are some thoughts for you for a dedicated 3-gun rifle:

Barrel:  18" stainless steel (as opposed to chrome-moly lined) with a 1:8 twist will give you a good balance of long/short and range of 55 to 75 gr bullet weights which would be perfect for 3-gun.  From what I understand, chrome-lined barrels last longer when using hi velocity ammo, but are not as accurate.  An 18" barrel is also compatible with a rifle length gas system since there is sufficient dwell time past the gas hole before the bullet exists the barrel.  I ended up with a medium contour barrel, but if I had to do it over again I would probably give serious consideration towards a lighter weight one.  Travis has one that was turned down and wrapped in carbon fiber that weights almost nothing...  Mine is a JP barrel with a Wylde chamber, and it will run .223 Remington as well as 5.56mm ammo, but all I run in it are my own reloads.  I think I've shot <100 rnds of .223 factory ammo thru it, and that was during break-in.  

Gas block:  as mentioned before, I prefer a rifle length gas system, and I ended up with an adjustable one that is turned down to 3/4 to reduce the amount of gas going back to the bolt.  The gas block on my gun is even with the end of the free float hand guard, but if I was to do it over again I'd have gotten a low-profile gas block so I could use a longer hand guard that extends beyond the gas block.  

Free Float Hand guard:  I'm with Luvmy45 in that I don't like the feel of a quad rail.  Not only it is harsh on the hand, and yes you can get rail covers, but most of the quad rail hand guards have a larger outside diameter than a round tube with no rails.  Plus I didn't envision needing all those rails, because its not like we're going to be mounting a lot of junk on our guns.  But even the round tubes have mounting slots for adding short sections of rail if you find the need for one.  I'm running a VTac/JP 12" FF hand guard, but would recommend a 13" or 15" so you can get your hand further out towards the end of the gun.  Most of the FF hand guards come with their own barrel nut that you'll use to attach the barrel to the receiver as well as be the attachment point for the hand guard.

Bolt Carrier Group (BCG):  Some people recommend spending money on a good one and I followed this advise when I got mine.  You'll want to make sure it is MPI (magnetic particle inspected), and maybe even coated so it cleans up easily.  A functioning BCG is critical to the reliable operation of a Direct-Impingement (DI) rifle, so its worth the expense in my opinion to get a good one.  Mine is from FailZero and is iobond coated for its inherent lubricity and ease in cleaning, and while I can't just wipe off the carbon build-up it only takes some light scraping to get it off.  I do run my bolts dripping wet, and so far no problems.  

Trigger:  I ran a milspec trigger that came from a DPMS lower parts kit for the first year or so, then upgraded to a Geissele Super 3 Gun trigger after talking to a  few people and trying their after market triggers.  JP's are really nice, but I feared that the install was a little beyond me since fitting was required.  The Geissele was a drop-in affair.    

Adjustable stocks: Magpul makes a bunch of options ranging from the $60 MOE to $250 UBR or PRS.  The only advantage I can see for the higher priced ones is more consistent cheek weld and maybe they are stouter, but beyond that... get one that you like and can afford.  There are two types of receiver tubes:  Milspec and Commercial, and they have different diameters.  No real difference other than that, but you'll want to make sure that your stock is compatible with the type of receiver tube you have.

Upper/Lower receivers:  I'm sure there are differences between some of the higher quality billet receivers compared to the lower end aluminum cast ones, but in truth I can't tell the difference -maybe I will in about 20,000 rnds.  You don't even need to get a lower/upper receiver to be the same brand, though the matched set ones may fit together tighter.  But as Jaggy said, you can use an Accuwedge to take up any play between them.  My lower is a LAR and upper is Yankee Hill.  

Lower Parts Kit:  These go for about $60-70, and contain all the pins, detents, safety, mag release, trigger guard, grip, hammer, trigger, etc... that you'll need to assemble the lower, but in my case I ended up using after-market grip, trigger guard, trigger/hammer.  

Charging Handle:  after playing with TG's, I replaced mine with one from Techwell since it has an oversized handle for right-hand manipulation.  No regrets.  That thing is awesome.

Sling:  every now and then our 3-gun matches will require a sling, so its best to factor that into your gun and make sure there are attachment points for either a single point or 2-point sling.  I have a 2-point that I made based on the Vicker's design, and that was because the only time I tried a single-point I was hitting myself in the junk whenever I transitioned to pistol.  But watching Raul manipulate his single-point at a class got me thinking because one advantage of a single point is the ability to transition to the weak shoulder...  

The cool thing about AR's is there is very little fitting required to assemble one from parts, and they are for the most part drop-in.  I hesitate to use the term "building an AR" since all you're really doing is assemble one from parts... kind of like Lego for adults.  And later on if you change your mind on something, you can dis-assemble it fairly easily and put something else on.  It's just money...  

[Jaggy13]

As Evans pointed out, there are a lot of factors to consider. Thats why my rifle has taken over a year to build up.
I stared with what Ii had and changed things that I felt would help my performance.
I just put a Jard trigger in because I finally feel like I have earned it.
I took a class from TG last spring. That was very helpful.
My personal view is to train first and find equipment that compliments my style.
I found that a good compensator was higher on my list than a trigger.


I don't have an 18" barrel, mostly because I haven't needed it. Someday that may make the list.
to quote TG "3 things that make a good 3gun rifle. Glass, trigger, Free float hand guard".

Once you nail those down the rest is really prefference and cosmetic.

Just like Evans, I run a 12" hand guard and would like a longer one. I'll probably get a 15" one of these days.

I tend to keep things a little more simple than some. It's easy to get lost in it and end up with a rifle that you expect to drop you off at work and pack you a lunch...

[luvmy45]

I tend to keep things a little more simple than some. It's easy to get lost in it and end up with a rifle that you expect to drop you off at work and pack you a lunch...

  Ain't that the truth!

[donm]

That's what I seem to running into is that there are so many rifle makers and such a variety of parts you can go crazy trying to figure what you want. I know Evans is not going to be there next weekend but the following weekend I would like to sit down and talk to you about making a plane to build a rifle. Discuss parts I will need and where to get them. I will feed you lunch either at my house or a resurant, your choice. I can start buying parts as I can afford it and when I get enough together to build the upper or lower them maybe you can help me out. Good luck at the Utah state shoot. Did you get your Trojan back? working?

[dutch1911]

I second everything Evans said. He's on top of his shit.
I'm a Colt armorer and also would be more than willing to help. If you're looking to build put a wish list together, I have a discounted account with brownells... More than willing to help out!

Dutch1911
1/*
Black Talon Defensive Dynamics LLC.

[donm]

Thanks. after I sit down with Evans to make a list I might get hold of you for some stuff.

[Jaggy13]

Thanks. after I sit down with Evans to make a list I might get hold of you for some stuff.

I think he is running a Kimber while the Trojan is down. I offered to go shoot for him...

Something tells me he will do just fine.

For what it's worth, Carhartfarmer is in my opinion the best budget builder on here.
That guy is always giving me good ideas.

Your on the right track. take your time and you'll be very happy with the end result!

[ekuo]

Dean fitted a new Kart barrel on my STI and I broke it in this weekend.  It locks up pretty tight but started to loosen up a little by 300-ish rounds.  Pretty damn accurate as well.  Dean is the man!  

The feed ramp needs some cutting and polishing so SWC's feed reliably, but in the meantime I loaded up some 230 gr RN bullets and it feeds those just fine.  

Don, I can give you a list of parts that I used and where I got them, but they aren't the only ones out there and there might be some equally good manufacturers that others have had good luck with.  In the meantime you might swing by Sawtac and see what parts Jeff has in stock.  

One thing you might consider is building the upper first since you already have the lower, then when time and money allow put together the lower.  I'll bring mine to the Emmett match.  

[ekuo]

IIRC, I started my AR project by picking the barrel first.  That told me what size gas block I needed and how long of a hand guard to get... Plus the barrel is the heart and soul of the rifle so invest now and it'll pay dividends down the road (save money elsewhere like with a $60 buttstock instead of a $250 one).

One barrel that I looked at were ones from Bravo Company, this one in particular:  http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-18-SPR-SS410-Barrel-with-Rifle-Length-Gas-p/bcm-recbrl%2018ss.htm

Unfortunately it's currently out of stock, but has everything you want such as the twist, gas system, length, diameter, cut with the M4 feed ramps, and is HPT and MPI'd.  I almost got this barrel, but it was out of stock back then.  It has a .750" diameter at the gas block, so that is the magical number when selecting a gas block.  

Another choice is JP Enterprise, which is the barrel I went with.  It cost a little more, but buy once cry once...  http://www.jprifles.com/1.4.1_barrel.php

Mine is the 18" .223 Wylde barrel and it came with an adjustable gas block and compensator (about $150 worth of stuff), plus they machine the comp so it is blended to the barrel and evenly clocked.  I shot the Bennie Cooley tactical comp for a while, then swapped it out for a PWS FSC556 because I found I could control the gun better with the PWS comp. 

This ought to keep you busy for a little!  

[No-One]

I have an 18 inch upper with a VTAC handguard on my AR . I can't remember what the profile on the barrel is but it is not an HBAR . If you wanted to let your wife check it out your welcome to bring her over . I personally think the JP/VTAC handguard is the best there is for overall versatility and ergonomics .

[ekuo]

Since we're on the subject of hand guards:

This is what I have:  http://www.jprifles.com/1.4.4_hg.php

Mine is the 12.5" length, but as mentioned before if I was to do it over again I'd go with the 15.5" version.  Its not that I have super long arms, but the way I grip the rifle, I index off the end of the hand guard and sometimes the fingers of my support hand come into contact with the gas block (yeow, it's HOT!).  

I'm pretty sure Brownell's sells this hand guard as well.  Yup, they do:  
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=22876/Product/AR-15-M16-AR-STYLE-JP-MODULAR-HANDGUARD-SYSTEM

Another option is the Troy TRX Extreme Battlerail.  Troy makes two models of the Battlerail: the standard which is a quad rail, and the Extreme which only has a rail on top.  It also comes in 11", 13" or 15".  I'd go with the 13" or 15".  I think Jeff may have these at his shop, or Brownells also carries them: http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=38853/Product/AR-15-M16-TRX-BATTLERAIL

I'd be curious to know if the Troy was lighter than the JP-VTAC.  

[ekuo]

Gas Blocks:

I have the JPGS-3 gas block with piccatinny rail because at one point I thought I was going to mount a flip up front sight on it.  That didn't happen.  The JPGS-3 gas block has an interior diameter of .936" which is the same diameter of the barrel at the gas block on the JP barrel I bought.  If you end up with another barrel, say the Bravo Company barrel which has a .750" diameter, the JPGS-1 or JPGS-5 would fit.  If you wanted a low-profile gas block that fits under a long FF hand guard, go with the JPGS-5. 

http://www.jprifles.com/1.4.6_gs.php

The JP gas blocks have an adjustment screw that restricts how much gas is going into the gas tube to the gas key on the BCG, which is a nice feature since I think I read somewhere that most D-I AR rifles are over-gassed to begin with. 

But if you're wanting other options, Bravo Company sells some low profile gas blocks:  http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/AR15-M4-Barrel-Parts-s/4.htm  Scroll down for gas blocks by LaRue, Knights, Vltor, Stag...

[Nealio]

One barrel that I looked at were ones from Bravo Company, this one in particular:  http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-18-SPR-SS410-Barrel-with-Rifle-Length-Gas-p/bcm-recbrl%2018ss.htm

That is the barrel I have.  You're welcome to shoot/fondle/inspect it any time Don.

I run the cheapest gas block I could find.  I think its a Yankee Hill. 

[carharttfarmer]

if your building on a budget and want a 18inch this is the cheapest option
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/431749/dpms-barrel-ar-15-556x45mm-nato-heavy-contour-1-in-8-twist-18-stainless-steel-black-pre-ban
its what i use and have no problem getting sub 1 inch groups so i dont see the need for a 250-500 barrel for 3 gun
for a 16ich this ones nice and light to
http://shop.nordiccomp.com/Wilson-Nordic-AR-Rifle-Barrel-Stainless-16-BBL-223-16M-WIL.htm
have it an have no problem getting sub 1 inch groups out of it either
IMO i dont see the need for an adujustable gas block unless your going to spend the money for a light wieght bolt carrier to
for forearms if you want a 15 inch long one this one from nordic is the cheapest price wise but they make top notch stuff
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/287064/nordic-components-slotted-customizable-free-float-tube-handguard-ar-15-extended-rifle-length-aluminum-black
but just about any free float forearm will do the job hell my 3gun rifle has a $35 model 1 that i drilled vent holes in

as far as bolts/bolt carriers i havent seen much differnce chrome ones wipe off easy but cleaning any of them isnt that hard the rock river for 130 has always worked for me

 

[ghengiskhabb]

What are the preferred muzzle devices? All I have are standard A2 birdcages.

[Jaggy13]

cody is the man!
Thats the forend I'm probably going to buy myself for my birthday.

My view on gas blocks and bolt carriers is just get good enough.
Later if you want to upgrade, you can keep the other as a backup.
Afterall thats the name of the game, keep the rifle running and its a lot easier to place higher!

[tgibson]

What are the preferred muzzle devices? All I have are standard A2 birdcages.

PWS FSC 556.  I have a couple of extras if you'd like to try it out.  I also have Surefire's, Cooley's, Miciluck's, Nordic's, Go Gas'....several others.
Adios,
TG

[J Mack]

Thanks guys. I appreciate all the input. I looked at JP and they are out of my price range. I also looked at LaRue and they are closer but I don't know much about them.
Thanks again.

Take a look at the PWS Wraith 3-Gun Rifle if you're still considering a complete rifle.
I hear one of the local High Speed 3-Gun guys had allot of input on the combination of parts and this particular guy is known for being hard on parts. If it works for him it's good enough for me.



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