Topic: Long Range Shooting

[sidaemon]

So I've been shooting pistol for some time now, well seriously for about 5 years.

Lately though I've gotten more and more interested in long range shooting and getting really good at it. I've had some experience with different rifles, but mostly stuff dealing with open sights and shooting either to put meat on the table or plinking. My dad gave me a model 700 270 WSM two years ago for Christmas, and I've put a few rounds downrange with it, but in truth my wife has shot it more than I have, just because I don't have a ton of experience with the tool, and I've always felt if something is done it should be done right, and frankly I don't know enough about it to REALLY know what I'm doing.

Optics and sighting and figuring targeting for long range is something I know NOTHING about. So I guess what I'm asking is does anyone have any good reference material or sites that I can use to begin learning how to calculate out a shot at very long distance. I realize that its going to take time to get good at it, most likely years, and lots of practice, but you never pick up a new skill until you challenge yourself to start learning.

So any advice? I'd like to avoid getting a ton of new equipment, but can go a couple hundred bucks for a few things here and there if need be. Currently I have the Remington model 700 cdl in 270 WSM mounted with a 10X Leupold scope. Seems like a good gun for range, but truthfully I don't know. A part of me is leaning towards picking up something in a different caliber to begin learning just because the ammo for that rifle is pretty expensive, and even with loading my own (which I have the equipment for) it seems like in a year's time worth or practice the difference in ammo cost could help me break even. I've had people recommend the 308 to me, and from what I've read it seems like the difference in price would make up for the initial investment of the rifle in the long run, but maybe my thinking is off on this?

So I guess what I'm asking is, does anyone have any advice for me, on where to start, and how to proceed? Thanks in advance.

[Grumblecakes]

308 is good, love mine (savage 10fp) and it didnt break the bank either. that said my ar15 in 223 is as accurate enough for me at the same distance (450m). ive never compared targets past 200m cause i dont wanna walk that far. i just shoot the 2' gong and call it good. with both ive picked off clays at 300 that people leave. so maybe consider 223 if you wanna save on ammo, lots of good bolt guns in both cals. 223 might be easier too if recoil bothers you. a 22lr is also good cause you can master some of the basics just as well on a 22lr as you can in pretty much any caliber without going broke.

also i found some good reading on this site: http://www.6mmbr.com/index.html
also: USMC - MCRP 3-01A Rifle Marksmanship

skip to chapter 4. my brother and i both learned to shoot well in the marines but hes a better shot than me cause he still applys the fundamentals that you will find in the manual.

lots of practice has helped me, im gold medalist or anything but im accurate enough to have fun.

[sidaemon]

I actually have a brand new ar-15 in 223 that I just finished putting together, but have been told that they are only effective to about 300 yards, which I may be finding out now that is wrong. To be honest this build got me more interested in really dialing a rifle in and this is what I will be learning the basics on. I'm thinking down the road of picking up something heavier that will go longer, but I need to start much closer and I figure having too much rifle is just as bad as having too much. I've also found that there is no substitute for barrel time once the research has been done, and dropping for the 270 is cost prohibitive for that.

I do think I'll take your advice and shoot my 223 for awhile while I learn. Thanks for the reference material it gives me a great place to start!

Again, thanks.

[Nomad]

 Many very good long range shooters on this site EDGE, JMACK and RGinIdaho are a few that would
have very good information...
 Starting out there are two calibers that would come to mind first the 308 and the 260 some of the
best bullets on the market for long range shooting....
 Barrel life is great with the above calibers you can expect some where between 6000-1000 rounds before you need to re barrel...You go with any of the mags and 800-1500 rounds a new barrel. Brass
with the belted mags is about three firings and with the other mags maybe 5.
 A 308 or 260 as high as 6-10 depending on how hot you go with your loads....
 Many good scopes out there with what you have the Leupold you can send it back to them and have
different knobs put on as well as the reticule put on it.
 Here are a few good site to start with:

http://demigodllc.com/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-equipment/http://www.longrangehunting.com/
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=cfrm
http://www.ar15.com/
http://sniperrifle.org/

Parma has a spring shoot as well as one this winter hope you come out most are glad to help .

[J Mack]

Many very good long range shooters on this site EDGE, JMACK and RGinIdaho are a few that would
have very good information...

I’m not sure I deserve to be mentioned with those two but thank you!

I would recommend a Ruger 10/22 with a Muller APT scope, the least expensive quality trigger time period. This whole setup can be had for about the same as 400 rounds of ammo for your 270 WSM.
Shooting the .22 out to 250 yards is very similar to shooting a .308 to 1000 yards at a fraction the cost and finding places to shoot @250 are a lot easier than a 1000.
You’ll find that DOPING the range is the easy part once you get your arms wrapped around it but calling the wind and driving your equipment will become your biggest challenges and the .22 shines here as well.
The slower moving .22 reacts much more to the wind making it difficult to predict much like your centerfire’s at the longer distances.
I pick the Ruger 10/22 because it’s the easiest budget .22 to modify to suit or needs and aftermarket parts are plentiful. The 10/22 is also a hammer strike fired as opposed to a bolt gun that would be striker fired meaning the 10/22 will have longer lock time making proper trigger/gun control extremely important. Bad habits on a bolt gun will always show up when shooting a simiauto and good habits from the simiauto will always transfer over to a better long distance shooter with a bolt gun, if that makes sense.
The Muller APT is an affordable MILL dot scope with exposed turrets that is well suited for .22 long distance shooting. If you plan on shooting out to 250 yards make sure you get a 20MOA rail to mount it to.   

Somewhere in my bookmarks I have some good links for reading wind and ranging I post later.           

[sidaemon]

The 10/22 is a great suggestion and one that seems to have some good arguments going for it. One question I would have is what is everyone's thought on the 22 conversions for the ar-15? I have an ar that's built to exactly what I would be comfortable shooting is why I ask. Plus it seems like a decent bolt group conversion runs about $200 and with scope and gear that I already have it may be cheaper in the long run.

I have reservations about the quality of the shooting there however, and am willing to put in the extra money to do it right from the beginning, any thoughts on this?

Thanks zac.

[J Mack]

You’ll need to have confidence in your equipment to truly practice long range shooting with a .22 and you will need a sub MOA rifle that’s accurate enough to hit what you’re aiming at or you will just get frustrated.
I have and have seen many .22 LR AR’s and none would make good long range practice rifles in my opinion.   


The bolt group conversion is completely out of the question for accuracy out of a .223 barrel. The .22LR needs a 1:16 twist and a tighter bore not to mention the .22LR likes a short chamber something none of the AR kits offer. 

[Grumblecakes]

the ciener type conversions are ok but mine has never been accurate at all. target looks like a shotgun hit it. the twist rate of an ar combined with about 2" of free bore are not conducive to accuracy. i hear the dedicated uppers can be pretty accurate though.

[ida83704]

your Ar15, with the right optic and the right bullet can get out to between 750 to 900 yards , generally
The .270WSM, 1200 yards maybe, not sure.
There is not a decent selection of high BC .277 bullets.


Most people getting into Long Range end up replacing scopes first, either for more adjustment or Mil-dots/TMR or repeatability.


Long Range can be broken down into the following
External Ballistics
Ballistic Calculators
shooting angles, Mil/MOA
Scope adjustments
marksmanship

[sidaemon]

Looking at the advice I think I'll shy away from the ar conversion, seems like a waste of $200 if it's not accurate. My initial plan was to simply get used to using my ar and get really good with it, and frankly the ammo is not so prohibitively expensive that that will be an issue. I reload for handgun already, and I might simply get set up to do reloads on my 223 brass, which should both improve my cost, and accuracy. So it looks like I need to work the basics with the rifle that I have, and then when I feel real comfortable with that, upgrade into a range rifle.

Some great advice here, and I appreciate it. Any advice on learning about ballistics? Wind Calculations? What about optics? I currently have a 3-9 on it, and while that looks good for about a 200 yard shot past that I don't know... At least at my current skill level.

Thanks again, zac.

[J Mack]

Check out the Demo:
http://www.shooterready.com/
The effects of side to side cant:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2189771

Wind part 1:
Ultimate Sniper Instructional - range estimation wind
Wind part 2:
Ultimate Sniper Instructional - range estimation wind 2

[RGinIdaho]

Many very good long range shooters on this site EDGE, JMACK and RGinIdaho are a few that would
have very good information...

Wow Buz, you set the bar pretty high...

A lot of good information has already been tossed out.

It can be done quite simply with some basic equipment.
Rifle and ammo
Optic, with some kind of ranging system - mildots are the most common. The optic should also allow you to "dial in" your dope.
Range card - Many sources online
Data book - a note book to record what you have learned about your rifle/load/environment

Everything can be upgraded for a price but the basics will get it done if you do your homework and put some time behind the gun.

First, I would say that you need to define "long range" prior to settling on anything.

The .22 advice posted above is excellent. There is something humbling about position shooting with a .22 and irons as well.

I also have to agree that ShooterReady is a great training tool for the money.

Get out to one of the Long Range or Practical/Precision Rifle shoots and see how the game is played. Then you can make a better decision about what you need.

[tgibson]

your Ar15, with the right optic and the right bullet can get out to between 750 to 900 yards , generally

Not sure I agree with this.  With the .223 being the rifle I shoot most and have done the most work on/with, I do have some experience there and I'd say you'd be hard pressed to find a .223 that will shoot sub-moa.  Last long range match I shot out at Parma was with Luvmy45 and RG.  One guy in our squad was shooting a .233.  He had what I'd consider to be a "long range" .223.  Good glass, good barrel, and good hand loaded ammo (69grSMK's).  On the targets past 500y, he really struggled.  No hits on anything past 700.  I'd say if anyone could have done it, he could...no love.
Maybe the part I'm missing is target size.  I guess if you were shooting a 4'x8' sheet of plywood at 900y, you could get some hits!! LOL!!!
Adios,
TG   

[sidaemon]

Basically what I'm looking for right now is simply using the equipment that I currently have to learn the skills that will translate into shooting at range. With my 223 if I can get out to 4 maybe 500 yards, I'd be thrilled, if I could shoot consistently at that range. At that point I would probably upgrade the equipment I had.

One question that seems applicable, is a rangefinder a smart piece of equipment to invest in at this point. Seems like learning about ranging, dialing in for range, and calculating for windage is a big set of expectations for a beginner, and taking the ranging out of the equation might be a good idea.... Or is it best to try to learn all the skills at the same time?

[Grumblecakes]

known distances are useful but figuring out mildots is quicker and easier in the long run imo. if you reload 223 and dont mind single feeding you should have no problem being reasonably accurate out to 500. varget and 75gr amax have been excellent for me

[sidaemon]

Another question to consider. Reloading. I already reload for pistol shooting. I have a Dillon 550b reloading press. I have however heard that progressive presses lack the precision necessary for long range shooting. Looks like single stage presses are pretty cheap, does anyone have any thoughts on this?

[J Mack]

Reloading quality ammo is possible on a progressive press.
As Travis points out learning to shoot long range with an AR will be as much an equipment issue as a skill issue. Battle rifles are not inherently accurate although some are better than others.
Some things to look at with your .223 AR, you’ll want to shoot the heavier bullets but need a fast twist barrel to stabilize them 1:7 is best but 1:8 will work, if you are starting out with a 16” barrel chances are good that to get the velocity you need you will have to load them longer than will fit in a magazine so you’ll need to single feed. Two of the biggest hurdles with an AR will be getting your setup shooting sub MOA at distance and spotting your shots out there whether you hit your target or not.
If I were going to work on my long range shooting skills with an AR I would shoot for group size at 100 – 300 yards in different weather conditions and forget about trying to find the limits of the .223.   

[tgibson]

Reloading quality ammo is possible on a progressive press.
As Travis points out learning to shoot long range with an AR will be as much an equipment issue as a skill issue. Battle rifles are not inherently accurate although some are better than others.
Some things to look at with your .223 AR, you’ll want to shoot the heavier bullets but need a fast twist barrel to stabilize them 1:7 is best but 1:8 will work, if you are starting out with a 16” barrel chances are good that to get the velocity you need you will have to load them longer than will fit in a magazine so you’ll need to single feed. Two of the biggest hurdles with an AR will be getting your setup shooting sub MOA at distance and spotting your shots out there whether you hit your target or not.
If I were going to work on my long range shooting skills with an AR I would shoot for group size at 100 – 300 yards in different weather conditions and forget about trying to find the limits of the .223.   

what he said...

Adios,
TG

[luvmy45]

Loading precision ammo on a 550b is very doable... you just have to break the process down to it's parts, and don't expect that every pull of the lever results in a load case.

This is a aged reloading page of mine for 308, but could be used for 223 as well, or any long range cartridge that you want to load precisely. http://idpa.kohagen.com/LRTR1.html

The best thing you can do, before you spend a dime on any equipment, is come out to a Practical Precision Rifle match. There is one this Saturday in Parma, bring any gun you want that's center fire with an optic and shoot. You'll see hunting rifles, and specific long range rifles, and guys that know less than you and guys that know more than you.

Shoot the match!!!!!! You'll not only learn things about your rifle, your setup, and yourself, but you will gain much more knowledge about what YOU want to do with your setup than just talking with people.

Next spring the .22 Long range shooting starts up again, and those are great, Steve, the instructor usually holds a ballistic class at some point as well, but the best thing you can do... is go out and shoot with some guys that are doing it.