Topic: This guy lived under siege in Sarajevo for a year

[chubbyhubby]

I originally found the link to this guy on survivalblog, he tells his story about living in Sarajevo during the war in the early 90's and specifically what life was like. The original thread is here http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=189395 but for the sake of all that is good I have read through all 34 pages of posts and copied the best stuff which I will paste further down. He now has authored a blog called shftschool.com  VERY INTERESTING PERSPECTIVES FROM SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN THERE DONE THAT!

EDIT: it was not Sarajevo, he says only a city of about 50,000

[chubbyhubby]

About hygiene, cups and plates, paper or plastic, you gonna need a LOT, i know, we did not have it at all.
My opinion that hygiene things is more important maybe than food, you can easily shoot pigeon, if you have grandmother she may know some eatable plants on nearest small hill (my experience) but you can not shoot hand sanitizer
Water purifying pills, all kind of cleaning stuff, sanitizers, lot of soap, bleach, gloves, masks, all disposable, take very good care about first aid training, learn how to treat smaller cuts, burns or even gunshot wound, there is not hospital, even if you found doctor somewhere he probably do not have any meds, or you do not have stuff to pay him.
Learn how and when to use antibiotics and have it a lot.
Belive me with good knowledge and good amount of meds you are gonna be rich.

About gold and silver, yes, me personally gave all my gold for ammunition in that time, but it did not worth too much.

Oh one more interesting thing about fire, some people use to go few miles during the night only to find fire somewhere so they can fire peace of wood and bring it home, and start fire for cooking or heating, lighters and matches was really precious, and most of the folks did not have enough firewood do keep always fire. For most of the people it was constant search for something, fire,wood,food,ammo...

Was salt a valuable trade item?
It was valuable yes, but not too much, for example coffee or cigarettes worth-ed much more.

Hm, i had a lot of alcohol as i mentioned before, i traded almost everything without any problem, let me say it like this: consumption of alcohol was probably 10 times more than in normal time.Not to mention cleaning and disinfection.

On the other side you made a very good point, if you have money and time and you have a storage it is probably better to store cigarettes or candles and batteries for trade, or food.

About cooking, before the SHTF i used in my house electricity for booth, cooking and heating, so when everything started i traded some stuff for some kind of old wood stove, i put it in kitchen ad fix exhaust pipe (right word?) trough hole in wall, i use that for cooking and heating.

During the summer i cooked in my backyard (walled fence, brick, luckily)

Concerning the smell of the food, hm, i ll try to picture situation: no electricity, no running water, sewage off for months, dead bodies in ruined houses, grime and mess, believe me it was very hard to smell something nice.
It was not like in movies, it was ugly,dirty, and smelly.
Yes i had few problems because of cooking, only few, but as i sad before, enough people, properly armed and with will to defend and you can manage most of the problems with that.

Probably situation would be different in wilderness.

I ate mostly some kind of pancakes with local herbs (does not require cooking oil and too much firewood), and of course everything what i could get and trade, rice was good to eat, not too much firewood for that.

I think i had luck, only few times i ate funny things like pigeons.

I always had something to trade, i guess that saved me, and guns of course.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bug Out Nation  
Selco, thank you for taking the time to share your real world experiences. This is likely the most accurate portrait of first hand information about a SHTF event, in quite some time. A lot of internet preppers tend to get lost in the movie style fantasies they dream up of a SHTF world.

I thought your comments about there being no good or bad, but a lot of grey, is very spot on. People will bcome willing to do some very insidious things to keep their own families protected and alive. The lines blur between what is socially acceptable and what is required to continue to survive. There are many more people who will to turn to raiding, than what people are willing to admit. 


I do have a few questions for you, if you wouldn't mind to share some insight on.

1. Why would the night be safer than daytime? Outside of the obvious of being easier to hide at night, but were the gangs more out during the days? Also, why only small groups of 2-3? What happened to larger groups?

2. Why would you have to go out at night? For instance, where were you going and why? 

3. How did you handle the mob situation when they came for you, or your family?

4. You mentioned trading for bullets, etc. How much shooting were you doing during that time and how much ammo did you have, or would like to have had?

5. How were you able to determine who was an enemy and who wasn't? How did you manage to get out there trade with people and when/where?

6. What fortifications did you do to your home and what kind of guard, or protections did you have in place?

7. Finally, how did you avoid snipers? What precautions did people take against them?



Thank you for your time and insights.
No problem

First almost nobody were out during the day because of snipers, line of defence was very close, so whatever you have to do, you do it during the night, trade something, look for firewood (i can express how much this was important in town, and hard), looking for anything, check somebody, go to hear news (very very important, lot of people get killed because they go somewhere just to see what happening, or what s new) remember, no news, no radio ,no tv, nothing, rumors fed lot of people. 

Already explained, you can stay home and die of hunger and cold, or even infection of some small wound or go out and risk your life, try to find - trade anything useful

I did have situations concerning my house only, it is no need for too much details, we had more fire power, and brick wall.
Also we had something like street watch, people from my street were good organized, in case of gangs, now there were a lot shootings.

There was pretty much shooting in town, i did not have enough weapon at the beginning, one rifle and one pistol (ww2), maybe 100 bullets, later i trade some things for more rifles and ammo, remember i gave car battery for 2 rifles.How much ammo ?
A LOT, as more as you can.

Most of the time you are not able to determine who is enemy or friend, expect my family and few real friend, everybody else is potential enemy. When your friend must choose between his child s death and your death quess who is going to choose.

6. Rumors, somebody tells you that some old guy few block away have some cans and he is looking for ammo or whatever, you go there, as i say you are always looking for something.Same some people would came in my street as traders, witha some goods.
There was something like trade street during the night, actualy it was a big ruins of sport center, you can go overthere and look for something or offer something, but it was not controlled by anyone so it was too dangerous.

It was primitive pretty much, brick wall around house,bags of sand on windows and doors, over that bags we used whatever you can, big pieces of metal, stones, inside house we put all kind of stuff on windows, only small openning left for rifle, always 5 members of family ready for fight, one always outside on street hidden.
Stone age situation 

To avoid snipers, we stay home at day, it was not so much night snipers, even during the night we never walked openly on the streets if we can avoid that, always shortcuts, trough ruins, fast and quiet.

Everything connected to hygiene worth ed a lot, toilet paper too, after some time i believe more people dies from diseases connected with lack of hygiene than from gangs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by max384  
What was your bathroom situation? Where did you go? Did you have anything to wipe with? Sorry ask such personal questions, but this is something that I've wondered about in this type of situation.
No problem
we used shovel and any piece of land close to house, sounds dirty, and it is dirty, washing with collected rainwater, sometimes go to river (most of the time that was too dangerous) Most of the time we did not have toilet paper, even if i had it, i trade it.
It was a bad situation all the time.
If i can give some advice: first to prep is a weapon and ammo, then everything else, i mean everything, depends how much money and space you have, if you forget something no problem there is always somebody ready for trade, but if you forget guns and ammo then you may not be able to get to trading places.
I do not see big family or group of really( i mean really) good friends as more mouth to feed, i see them as more guns and strength, it is in people nature to adapt.

And keep it simple and use common sense, in the first period weak people vanished, other fight.

Go with small thing, lighters, candles, flints. It is great idea to have fuel generator( electrical generating unit?) but i think is better idea to have 1000 bic lighters. Fuel generator is great, but in shtf scenario in town it is going to attract whole army,1000 bic lighters don t take too much space, cheap, you can always trade it for something.

Real SHTF scenario demands completely change of normal mindset, hard to explain, i ll try through examples.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Daisy  
Selco, about the weapons. I do not have any. I have never used one, I am in my 60's and female.

I understand I can go get a weapon here, but will need a license (they train you to use the gun) and then you get the certificate. My concern is that somewhere I else I read that in Bosnia, the police came to confiscate all the weapons. If I spend money on weapons and because I'm registered as a weapon holder, and they then take the weapon, it would hardly be worth it.

How easy/hard was it to get weapons AFTER the SHTF and what could you trade for weapon and ammunition (I remember you saying a car battery for a rifle) and where would I go to find the people who trade in weapons?
Hm, you re right, after the war every house here had a weapon from war, and yes police did some actions to take illegal weapon from population, depends from man to man i quess, lot of people find ways to hide their weapon somewhere, just in case.

I also have legal weapon (license), and authority here have some thing they call it "temporary collecting", it is says something like : in a case of unusual event (riots, unrest, etc) government have right to temporary collect all legal weapon, so i keep always in mind that, and i acted like some people.

You know some people have legal weapon for everyday carry( i have glock 45 and taurus 38) but some people with legal weapon also have illegal weapon hidden somewhere just in case SHTF and "temporary collecting"

It is not hard to get weapon in SHTF if you have good stuff for trade, but other thing is important, first days of SHTF is worst in terms of chaos and panic, maybe you not gonna have time to get gun. And to be unarmed in chaos panic and riots is bad.

In my case man needed car battery for radio i think, and he had some extra rifles, so we trade.

Wounds was mostly gunshot wounds of course, without specialists and everything else, if wounded manage to find doctor somewhere he had like 30% chances to live, again it is not movie, mostly they died, lot of died even from minor cuts infections, i had antibiotics maybe for 3-4 treatment.Of course for my family only.

Simple things killed people, diarrhea can kill you in a few days without meds and rehidratation, (fluid therapy, IV) especially small kids. Lot of fungal skin deseases,and food poisoning, we could not do too much. Basically we treated diseases mostly with local herbs, and if you had wound, put rakia on it and try to find antibiotics somewhere.

So i was good at fixing wounds in term of emergency help, but longer procedure-bad prognosis.

What i learned? Hygiene again, and a lot of meds, especially antibiotics. You need to learn to treat lot of stuff, go online, finish some training, EMT maybe, first aid etc.

In SHTF things are different, learn how to open IV, when to use certain drug, or antibiotics.
Get your self ANA TE (anti tetanus ) shot injections , snake poison kit, adrenaline kit (allergic reactions, different kinds) thick removal kit, (thick related illness can kill you, learn how to remove thick)...
Get in your prepper storage some reanimation kit (simple one) like small oxygen cylinder, BVM mask etc. It is not really hard to learn to use all of these.
OK let s clear something, of course you can not use anything of this in real world unless you are certified and trained for that ( EMT, nurse, physician ).
But in SHTF nobody ask you for license, just learn and have in your storage big part for medical things. 


So to answer question how did i help and treat, most of the time very poor,i help some with resources that i have, i took food or something else for exchange, i was badly prepared for that, now i am what do i need to have.

[chubbyhubby]

Telco, did your local currency/money still hold value? Were you still able to use money to purchase items from other people?
No, not really, i mean sometimes you can use foreign money if you had it to buy something, (dollars or German marks) but even in that rare occasion rate was unbelievable for examples 1 can of beans for 30-40 dollars (normal value was maybe 0,50) i quess somebody had connections with outside world, black market you know, so he can earn lot of money.But it was very rare. Trade was main thing to get something.

Local currency crashed very fast, in few weeks or month maybe.

Well, that's depressing. Guess I'm not surviving! 

I am sure you are very well prepared.
Now this was my personal experience, maybe my situation was specific, it was only one town during the four year war, and it was completely cut of from everything and everybody for about 1 year. Difference is that most of us was not prepared and aware what is gonna happen .
Again from my experience: if you are alone in the town in SHTF, do not wall your self, do not put fancy armored door, bulletproof windows, i suggest, tear down your wall, crash your windows, take old clothing and broken LCD tv garbage and put it on your lawn, take some dead animal dog or cat maybe, and put it on your lawn for stench.
To make story short- do everything so your house look robbed, empty and non interesting.(most of the people do not go in already stripped house, especially with stench of dead things)
Of course before all of this invest some money in good basement, with hidden entrance, air filtering your stock, your weapon and you inside, use night time to go out and survive.
This is only suggestion, i don t know for sure of course.

Maybe is better thing to offer your specific skills to some friends or family and move in.

Selco, you mentioned snake bite treatment. What would you use? 

I saw this and wondered if I should get it or if you recommend something else?

http://survivalcache.com/sawyer-extractor/
No i am not familiar with this device,as far as i know, venom spreads too fast through tissue, i don t think you can suck it. I was thinking about drug against snake venom,(injections) we here only have two types of venomous snakes, be familiar with types of venomous snakes in your surroundings and find right drug and right dosage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by renownedwolf  
Very insightful thread Selco, thank you. A little different question. What about small children and babies? Were there any particular things such as, formula, nappies, clothing, medicine etc which people bartered for or were in demand. How did people cope with keeping their children safe, any tips? Also were there items that you wanted/ needed just could not find or trade for 'love 'nor money'?
Just like most of the things, these things you could find if you have something interesting to offer, but i remember formula was very very expensive to trade.
Fuel was hard to find i remember that.
Real problem was that babies and small kids are more sensitive to lack of hygiene-diseases, if you do not have enough really clean water weakest gonna be sick first, if you don t have meds or don t know to treat them you are in problem.

So, yes people are bartering for that too, but it was constant struggle to find it, trade it, bring it home...
So i think, bigger storage, smaller problem.

no selco it all makes sense - more and more good experienced info




a question about health again



and dental health problems? any mouth infections or teeth problems?
Of course , same like everything else, i mentioned few times in some aspects of life it was stone age, no dentist mean lot of trouble, i knew man few blocks away, who was pulling teeth with pliers (electrical), wash mouth with rakia , then put mixture of local herbs, of course after this treatment you instantly need antibiotics.Cost for this was few cigarets, and he veterinarian.  Lot of infections. 

Originally Posted by Thedishdoc  
Can you tell how you hooked into the propane tank to refill lighters? How did you make the hose to do this? Thanks.
I've got this one ... I use an adapter purchased from an airsoft supplier for filling my glock 17 trainer from a propane tank. You should also be able to find nozzle adapters for refilling butane lighters at your nearest smoke shop: the butane adapters will allow you to use a butane canister to refill a variety of refillable lighters, and will also fit the airsoft propane nozzle.

Buy extras, they don't last forever.

I'm an EMT currently working as an instructor, and one of the things that we stress is self protection. (disposable gloves, face masks, gowns, goggles even) and I also recommend carrying sheers/ scissors (I never just reach into someone's pocket, I cut the sides and fold it open. In at least one case this saved me from being stuck with a used needle).

Also Alcohol wipe would be something that I would really stock up on, they have all kinds of different uses. 

Duct tape has many uses in EMS, and I would recommend stocking up heavily on that as well.

But like selco has said, knowledge and training is key, so it wouldn't be bad to look into classes in your area.

People may be pepper sprayed in a SHTF scenario here is some stuff that helps if you are exposed to it. 

Johnson and Johnson baby shampoo is great for washing out your eyes if you have been pepper sprayed. Have someone squirt it into you eyes blink for about 20 seconds and wash it out. 
Also Speed stick deodorant ( the kind where it is blue, and not jell) helps to close your pores and reduces the burn from pepper spray. 

How to make turpentine 
That's the color I was thinking =). If it came from a pine tree, I believe he made turpentine. There's good reason to cut that turpentine with diesel because it would mask the smell of it. That way nobody would know that's what you'd be using. Plus if you can't get enough, you'd have to cut it with something to get more.

Basically, you get a pine tree (there are a number of trees that can be used but pine is the most popular) and drill a hole about half the diameter of your small finger at the base about 1 to 2 centimeters past the bark of the tree. Attach a spigot by getting a hollow stick or pipe and cut it in half going lengthwise. Put that into the hole. Collect the sap by placing a bucket at the bottom. Put the contents into a still. Distill the sap at about 100 to 160 degrees celcius. The spirits from that is turpentine. 

Can be done year round but you'll probably get the most sap during late winter to early spring. 

If you already know how to make that, ignore my last paragraph =).
It's also used as a disinfectant. If you cut it with wax, you can use it as a varnish. Many uses for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoblintheCat  
Like the others, thank you so much for sharing your experience. I truly appreciate it.

If you would, please consider these questions:


You said that alcohol was a good trade item. Many people consider it to be a bad trade item because people may be more willing to attack you over it. Such as those who are addicted to it. What was your experience with this? Problem, not a problem?


Many people often express a concern with stocking ammunition as a trade item. Their concern is that you may trade bullets to a person who will then attack you. Was this considered to be a problem? Would you suggest stocking ammunition for trade?


Could you focus in on the medical issue just a bit. I would like to hear a bit more about the antibiotics issue. In specific, what would be a good two or three medical items to have in large stock. Both for personal use and for trade items.


I would like to hear more about the defensive measures you took. If you could expand more on that topic I would appreciate it. You mentioned the defenses you put up, rocks and sandbags and such. Could you talk a bit about what other people may have done differently for fortifications that worked or more importantly what did not work.


How did migration happen? Did you see people move from rural areas to the city, did you see people abandon the cities for rural areas? Did this change over time, say at one point people moved from one location and later on that changed direction?


Again, thank you for taking your time to post here. I really appreciate it. Your experience allows us to measure our concerns and thoughts against one example of what SHTF may look like. And even though I live in a rural area on a farm, I cannot express how valuable I find your experience. 

Thanks,
Chad
About alcohol first, you right but you are right in booth ways, people need alcohohol more in desperte times then usual, so it is kind of gambling i guess , it is very good item for trading, i never had problems with alcohol trading and having than problems with trading other things.

Also i am thinking about something else, maybe it is better to fill my storage with something less space consuming but still interesting for trade, like batteries, antibiotics etc.
Thing is i had all that alcohol for free, i did not buy it.I don t know about this.

In most of the situations people attack me because they think they are stronger, they did not know for sure what i really had.

About ammunition trade, it depends how much ammo you are going to have, sometimes i trade ammo for food, and in few weeks again food for ammo, but i never never do trade at my home, and never bigger amounts, very few people knowed how much of anything i had in my house.
The point is store as much of anything as you can store (space , money) later during the situation you ll see what is most popular, correction ammo and guns always gonna had 1 place for me, but who knows maybe number 2 for trading gonna be for example masks with filters.

About medical issue , i ll write in my next post what do i have now in my medical part of storage


Defence were very primitive, again we were not prepared, we use what ever we could, windows were broken, roofs mostly damaged from shelling, all windows were blocked with something, sand bags and rocks,every night i blocked my yard gate with junk- rubble from the street and i use old alluminium ladder to get over the wall, when i come back i called somebody from house to get me that ladders so i can move in.

Guy from my street barricaded his house completely, if he go out at night he use a hole that he maded in one room that is connected with neighbor s house, and go trough his (ruined and destroyed) house out, actually he had secret enterance.

It may look weird to say but most secured houses are gone first, of course we had some very nice houses in neighborhood, with walls, dogs, alarms, steel bars on windows, alarms. And you can quess what happened, mob attacked those houses first, some were defended other not, depend how many guns and hands thea have inside.

So i think security is great, but be sure that you keep it low profile, forget about alarm, if you live in town and SHTF you gonna need simple looking non interesting secured house, with lot of guns and ammunitions.
Just keep it low profile and not interesting.

On my apartment door now i have steel door for security reason, but only to keep me trough first short period of chaos, then i am moving out to connect with bigger group of armed people (family and friends) in the country (i hope) 

Well in my case migration did not happen because it happen very fast, other army just closed city in ring and that s it, if you ask me where was that army and how we did not seen them coming, the answer is simple, that army was an ally of army of my side and people, and one day we woke up and figured they are enemy now and they are closing all ways out. Politics . It is true, one more side of civil war.

But i heard from others parts of country, and my frends who stayed in villages in the other parts in state, that they have much better situations,countryside had land,corn,wheat, fruit trees, farms etc they had enough food, it was bad, but much better than in city.

I know one thing if we had some way out from the town, we would use it, we did not have it.

[chubbyhubby]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussie Mike  
Selco, a couple more questions for you.....

What happened to people's money who had bank accounts? After the war were people still able to get to "their" money in the banks? Were they able to withdraw money from the banks before they closed?

What happened to people's house's who abandoned them & came back, how did people prove ownership of their property? If someone died and then a group of people took over their house, after the war did they stay & say it was theirs or did everyone move back to "their" house?

People who had bank loan's for house's or vehicle's or other property, how did that work out after the war? Credit cards?

I know you were in the city, do you know how people survived in the rural areas? Did they also group together or did most rural people move away?

People who had vehicles, were they targeted more because they had a running vehicle?

I read that you said not to draw attention by having big steel front door or anything that looked new (shoes) & make your property look run down. From a security point then, blending in and looking poor instead of dressed up in "military gear" was a big thing then to surviving?

You talk about only moving at night time because of the snipers etc. Did any civilians have night vision equipment? 

How long did it take for the grocery store & gas stations to be empty/looted after SHTF

thanks again
About banks, loans, credit cards. Complete monetary system died for about one year, so nothing works.
It is complex question in many ways, i ll try it to answer it in some future posts, need much more time and much much more space to describe it. Even now almost 20 years later folks are at European court suing banks, because they dont want to admit their savings in banks, lot of different things happened in that period , they changed money, i mean monetary name, they changed it 2-3 times , hyperinflation occurs, lost of paper trails about savings, loans ... i remember some people use that situation to get rich, they still rich 
So i ll try to describe that in separate post.

There was a lot problems with proving people s property after everything, for example: my father had nice apartment and because war he must leave it, after war ended he was at court for about 4 years proving that apartment was his, reasons for that were different, because politics in that time, but also he did not have enough paper work to prove that apartment was his (he did not took papers from apartment when he fled, he had more important things to care)
On the other side during the worst period, people just moved in empty house, and that s it.
I mention rural areas in other post. As far as i remember it was better there.

In that period there is not running vehicle, actually i remember tank at the front line, and Lada Niva ( check it on web) with cut of doors and roof and installed machine gun ( i think it was an old m53) and those two only moved when they fired( they keep it hidden behind ruined houses)
For let me call it "civilian population" there was no moving with vehicles, streets were mostly under rubble and unusable and fuel was too expensive.

Not to draw attention was a big thing, about clothing, there use to be some sort of town defense, it was not like real military,mostly mixed civilian clothes with part of uniforms, different weapon, so no rules.
But as soon as go in to that things and try to talk about two armies, their strength, war crimes, politics i am not gonna like it any more, because people gonna start to choose sides, and i think it is not important for us here.

As i sad before there was not organized army, but we all been like soldiers, we had to, most of us carry weapon and try to protect from enemy army and robbers.

Inside the town you did not want to look fancy because somebody shoot you and took your good stuff, you did not want to have fancy rifle, because probably you not gonna find ammo in that caliber and also you are drawing attention.

So let s me try to put it this way: if SHTF tomorrow, i will try to look like most of the people outside, scared, desperate, confused and i ll scream maybe, no fancy looking stuff, i ll not go out in fancy new uniform and yell "I am here, you are finished now looters and robbers" I ll stay low profile, heavily armed and well prepared waiting to see my options, even if i have to go out with all my gear to do things i ll go in night, with best friend or brother. Maybe sounds ridiculous, but from my expirience it works, be wery well prepared, but let nobody outside your house know or see that.

No matter how good is your house security, how good is your weapon, if people see that they have good reason to rob you they probably rob you in town SHTF, it is only matter of time and number of guns.Don t ever give them reason to be interesting for robbing. Stay uninteresting. Now this is my opinion, maybe is not working in different situation.

About robbing grocery store and gas stations, it happened very very fast, as soon as shooting started all valuable things was emptied, there vas some effort of authority to keep it together but everything fall apart in first weeks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vectorwoman  
I have another question too, please 

You mentioned that a couple of days before, the government said everything was fine. Were there rumors before in which people were trying to prepare by stocking up before it happened or was everybody caught off guard?
Good question
Of course there was some signs, but we did not see it, or we did not wanted to see it.
Some major figures left town before everything started, we knew that, i seen that, we just could not believe that kind of things can happen to normal people.
I quess it is in human nature that some things can not be comprehended.Maybe i ve seen that something bad is gonna happen, i just keep (like most people) saying: "oh at the end they will fix that"

I think next time gonna be easier for me to see that something is coming.
I believe that most important thing is to accept fact that bad things can and eventually will happen. And of course i don t believe to much to main media, i rather go online and try to research things and separate facts from lies.

You see situation in my country (and in most surroundings countries) now is : Crime rate is increasing, unemployment is going mad, there is feel of desperation, prices of food and fuel constantly going up, politicians are corrupt more than ever, drugs, gangs.
So i would be idiot now to to say : "Oh somebody will fix everything"
I think there s more chance that everything going to explode trough some kind of collapse.

Originally Posted by newprepr  
I know you mentioned your diet during the war but I have a few questions:

1) did you and your group eat better or average from others
1a) I think you mentioned your wife did alot of the cooking for the group
2) how was your health in association with your diet
3) how long till you were back to full strength
Me and my family in that time were like "middle class" we did not starve to much, had some bad days with food but not too much, i was (like everybody else ) on constant search for food (and everything else), few potatoes, some rice, green salad from garden, cans and powdered eggs (luxury) we cooked when we had fire wood, then again for a week or two only local herbs (i don t know name, it is cow food i think) older folks pick that, it is looked just like ordinary grass to me, it did not have any taste at all.
Most of our family eat together, we share everything, we were family.
Generally speaking our health was poor, mostly due the cold during the cold months, bad food and of course bad water, each member suffers diarrhea for a longer period more or less.
Whenever i recall memories about that period first things that came on my mind are not guns or security problems, i always remember cold and smell .

I was something about 65 kg in that period, now i have 95kg. I am 185 cm high.
I lost 15 teeth in that and right after that period. I had skin problems for 3 years after that. Not to talk about psychological issues. I am fine now 

I completely agree with you about drug and alcohol usage, i mentioned i work in ER, i know what alcohol and drugs doing to the people and whole families. Also i am father so i am always concerned about that things.

On the other side if i can give you advice for some future SHTF it is gonna be: do not be sure in anything what you believed prior to SHTF. 

It is gonna be situation that gonna required some hard choices, everyone of us will have to choose, understanding of good and bad can be messed up.

I must say ,i never robed anyone, never kill someone for food or something like that. But also i never have to do that. I always managed to find other ways to do that, harder ways always. Easier thing to say now is i ll never gonna do bad things in similar situation.
True is you ll never now what you going to do in that situations and how far you are going to go to protect and feed your family.
Prepare for everything. 

Please do not take this too personal, you see i found your arguments normal and noble, and i share it too.
Just keep in mind that good people gonna be forced to do bad things in order to keep family alive. Is that making them bad people? I don t know, maybe.
Good and bad can pretty much mixed in that situations.

I guess as i said, each and everyone of us will have to choose.

Prior that war there were different law about owning a weapon, so very few citizen had legal weapon, on the other hand few months before war black market started with selling guns and rifles, prices were high, i think now that was another sign that s something wrong going to happen.As far as i can remember there was not anything like confiscating legal weapon.

Now the law is different, it is pretty much easy to get license and buy weapon (legal), but they made a law which they call "temporary collecting" It states that government have right to collect all legal weapon from citizens in case of some happening (they say riots, unrest's, happenings like that, but they are not to precise, so i guess they can confiscate it whenever they want)

Originally Posted by Thedishdoc  
My concern is what he was trading his TP for. That being said I have quite abit of TP stored myself. That is what prepping is about. Why have to have alternatives when you can just stock the item?
Yes, i agree about your point of prepping, but when SHTF you are not gonna think too much about toilet paper, you are gonna be angry because you did not use that space for ammo food or lighters for example instead of toilet paper. If you have huge storage it is OK then to store everything including lot of toilet paper.
But sooner or later you gonna be sorry that you did not invest that space-money for more important things.
You can replace toilet paper with alternatives... i know , i know you gonna say it is non hygienic, it is dirty, i ll never do that thing like that, but trust me, you can replace TP with some things, you can not replace bullets and cans.

So my opinion is unless you have endless storage and big money you need to set priorities.

TP is great, but first more important things.

Different people react differently, but most of the people were scared to death.
I was scared to death ,shocked, then some people get in the different mode of thinking and acting, killing mode, or survival mode, call it whatever you want (most of the war veterans will understand me)

You see when that started i was very young man, did not know anything about fear and death, i thought i am strong because i like Metallica and Slayer  ( i still like them)

So when it started it was hard.
Ask your self can you kill man? Can you kill him fast and without too much thinking? With hands or knife? 
OK then ask your self again. Can i?
I believe you will never know until you come in situation to kill, or be killed. 

I ve seen guy, with loaded gun, pointed to attacker, and still he is being killed from that attacker, attacker had a knife, i guess guy just did not have courage to shoot, or he was paralyzed with whole situation.

First weeks were worst in the meaning of accepting situation, sooner you accept new reality it is better for you.

I ve seen people crying in panic when it started, staring in wall, they just did not want to accept it, in same time some other guys stealing left weapon from abandoned police station.
You can quess who had better chances for survival.

One other thing, probably not important for you, it was for me: it was hard to accept SHTF, but it is was same hard to get back in the normal life after all ended.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoblintheCat  
Would you share some examples of things that people might have tried that did not work? What mistakes did you see that people made? Defense, medical, trade (how they traded or what they traded), whatever?

YMMV,
Chad
Yes
First thing is charity mostly did not worked, people who tried to help,give some food to others mostly ended dead,or in better cases beaten and robbed, people used somebody kindness to take everything from him.

So, to help is OK, i helped too, but be sure to know who you are going to help and in what amounts. 

In other words in SHTF in city, form or join your group very fast, at the very beginning if you can (family,best friends,members of some club, etc. )and keep it closed, tight and very very organized (food, ammo, hygiene...) group will have leader of course, it is not gonna be democracy of any kind, group will become hostile to new potential candidates very fast(unless they have some great skills)
How big group is depended from resources and skills, very big group without too much connection between members (again family, good friends...) usually turned to gang. 

And one more important thing, in SHTF things are turned upside down, worst kind of people gonna be important, they probably be rich in resources, they will own black market, they gonna have most fire power, one more reason to be in good organized group.

You know when it started i did not have axe in house ( i founded soon) i mean how many ordinary people have axe in apartment or house in city, not too many here, and there was a time in which i would gladly give one rifle for axe, i have one small tool box with very simple tools inside. In beginning it was very hard to strip some house for wooden parts for heating.

I had 3 TV s, VCR S stereo, electric stove... i used some metal plate from VCR to make something like small heating place for melting old wax, trying to make candles in my yard.
I ve used my electric stove to plug RPG hole in wall. Now i have lot of heavy duty nylon tarps in my storage.

About defense and medical, too large themes, i am keep promising to answer all question, just too hard, way too many questions, i am even trying to connect all themes and to form some kind of book, need time 
Next time i ll try to focus on medical only i promise again 

[chubbyhubby]

Originally Posted by redxb 
What did you do if you captured someone trying to break in, or steal from you?

I'm guessing if they meant you serious harm, that you returned with the necessary force, I assume that you didn't keep them as a captive, due to limited resources.

With complete chaos and no law enforcement, was there an 'accepted' standard of punishment, was it variable from group to group?
No rules again, if we caught some alone desperate man trying to steel something we make him run mostly.
But if someone attacking your house in order to take everything from you, to harm you and family, then no mercy.
If you show mercy in cases like that or try to make some kind of deal, next time they will come in bigger numbers.

If you are preparing best stuff, best gun in market, best uniform, boots, kevlar, night vision and everything else and you are expecting to go out at skate when SHTF and do some things,hmm i know it is nice picture but it is not working, Rambo is gonna be killed first  sorry i like that movie too,first part is OK 

Sooner or later you gonna be hiding, scouting, freezing, dirty, scared, poor, stinky ,desperate.

I ve seen Road movie,good movie, nice feeling of desperation, but walking openly at road pushing cart at day time,instead trough forest ,checking what it appears to be empty house with kid? Forget it.

You are not gonna be alone in that SHTF situation, there s gonna be more people, tougher, stronger, evil, ready to do anything.
You not going to look for trouble of any kind.

Wow. Finally finished 23 pages. 

Selco: Your info has been some of the best survival education I've gotten to date.

I have a few questions too: 

Can you give an example of a good person turned bad? Some normal person who became a thief?

For your home - did you camouflage it by making it look abandoned? Or make it look too difficult to attack with strong visible fortifications?

Cannibalism: Did any of that happen (that you know of?)

Thanks!

Added: 
Most of us in the US live in suburbs - not city, not country. Rows of single family houses, separated by 10 - 30 meters. 
How would you choose to defend such a home?
Well i ve robbed some alcohol factory at the beginning  And i am normal person now.
I think this is the hardest qustion for me.
Again ,you need different mindset for SHTF.
Trust me,there is no normal person in SHTF, to be more precise there is no normal person who survived SHTF.

If you gonna think like normal person in normal times and be in SHTF probably you are not gonna survive.

I was hiding my food from starving people, i think normal person could not do that.
I kept that food for my family. Is that good or bad?

I fired at people many times, used knife couple times. Yes it was in defense but still, to harm somebody is not normal, in any circumstance.

I am not sure that you gonna understand what i am trying to say, food is good ammo is even better, hygiene of course, antibiotics... 
Just first try to prepare somehow your mind that you gonna do things you not gonna like.
Good and bad, right and wrong can be mixed, at the end there is only will to survive.
Maybe i bored you with this, sorry.
To answer you simply, yes lot of people turned from good to bad, my good friend become gang member, worst kind, he was a normal guy in normal time. But in that SHTF situation he seen his chance i think, like many others.

I did not camouflage too much my house,we had enough fire power and enough members in my group, not bad street defense, most of interventions on house were to make it hard to penetrate or plug holes  
But we try to never attract anybody, we kept low profile, but we had strength. 


No, there was not cannibalism as far as i know.



Anyway i am starting with blog, try to put some sections, like medical, defense, food etc.. with more details.
I am beginner with blog, so it is gonna be slow

About suburbs, hmm we do not have that here, but i know what are you talking about, to be honest, house in suburbs, probably wooden house, i don t know i would probably try to recognize signs, take my family and go to countryside before everything. Or if you alone, make it look robed and devastated, dig in and pray.  I think suburbs is worst option. 

In SHTF worst kind of people are mostly in charge, they formed very fast some kind of their own private army, in some cases their number was in hundreds, they were drunk from feeling of endless power, because of them you needed to be uninteresting, small, invisible. 
They had everything, food, guns, luxuries, they owned black market. If they wanted something from you, eventually they get that from you, your food, house, wife, does not matter what. Only chance for you was that they did not notice you, or your other chance was that they see you have enough men and firepower so that what they want is going to cost them too much.
If you expecting some kind of fair fight or honor in SHTF, forget it right now.
We just stay away from them, there was not Superman or Batman in city who saved good people from bad, if we met them it was shoot and run.Most of that folks did not vanished after SHTF ended, most of them still alive, some of them trough that power still have power today, some in private companies, some in politics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by enuro12  
How do you think the entire dynamic would have changed if their were no food drops from the US? Or maybe there were not MRE drops the entire time?
As far as i can remember food drops were organized in hardest period of war, maybe 6 months, not sure.I think it was organized for couple of cities where situation was worst. 
It helped in two ways, food of course and sense that somebody somewhere think about us.You know like feeling that we are not forgotten.
Sometimes if i had enough luck and strength i could bring home 15-20 MRE s home, it was fortune. Food for days.

Things would be harder to get of course without drops.Things would be more "expensive" to trade.

One thing for sure- that chilly sauce in small bottles, it added some taste to some s..t what i ate in that time 

Guys? Again am i a fake?

I guess my last post was too short, i ll write one more, and this one is last for sure.
Yes, some people from city reckognized me on my blog, as i mention before some of the figures from that SHTF are still powerful here so i had some conversations today, and i received some advices, you know offer that you could not refuse 
I guess i become too popular. So i must stop..
Am i fake ? No i am not. But i understand those who said that i am fake, it is hard to belive some things can happen, and it is hard to oppose popular opinions made mostly from SF books and movies.

Right now i had around 35 questions that i did not answer, also i have some 50 different threatening messages to stop with this story.
Why did i write all this?
I did not earn any money from this, actually i have earned 10 $ from guy (thanks Alex) i will probably send him back money, or drink few Heineken s in his name if he refuse.
So it was not about money neither.
I wrote all this to help myself, and to help you.

To „Tulag“ about Bill Moreland. I mean WTF? Did you read anything what i wrote here??? Guy in 1930 living alone, in wilderness, hunting and all that. ( i just check it)
Holy s..t , i would give my right arm to be alone in wilderness during that my SHTF.
I mean Bill f.....g Moreland and Idaho?
I was shooting at the mindless mob, I was eating meat that i did not want to ask what kind it is, paralyzed from fear.I WAS NOT in wilderness alone, i was in small city together with maybe 50 000 wild, hungry, mostly armed and mostly hostile people, without food, water, electric power, water, news... You remind me on a guy who suggest skateboard as a perfect transport in city SHTF. I was fighting for my life literaly all the time, with rifle, knife and whatewer i could use. He was shooting at dears? Well in this case i was like deer in some situations.
I could not mention some details abouth horrible things, some things just can not be easily given, some details must stay buried inside, and that things are not important for survival, war veterans will understand me, let just say with so much shootings, theres been many victims, people can die on many ways, it is not like in movies.

Well, whole story maybe sounds too unbelievable i quess, but at least memorize my story, you don t have to belive.
In case of some future SHTF you ll remember me, i am sure.

To Firstforcerecon and Daisy, thank you, don t worry it is in human nature to thrash someone when he is not around

I ll try to connect with some of you trough other services.
Thank you for support.

Sorry for some bad words(curses) in this post, my english is improving.
Take care

[luckypunk]

completely & utterly fascinating 

[ida83704]

This guy a Bosnian or Serb?  Anyone catch that?

[J Mack]

This guy a Bosnian or Serb?  Anyone catch that?

Page 9 he talks about Bosnia.

[silver]

completely agree with luckypunk. Very, very insightful as well. He talked about a lot of things i never even considered, and  i thought that i had given the subject a fair amount of thought.

Now off to costco for extra butt-wipe!