Topic: Private Sales Undr 21yo(WTB kel-tec PF9)

[silver]

uno problemo there....im 19...perfectly legal for me to buy one from a private party, but not from a gun store 

[Nealio]

uno problemo there....im 19...perfectly legal for me to buy one from a private party, but not from a gun store 

How do you plan on getting ammo?

[ponder]

uno problemo there....im 19...perfectly legal for me to buy one from a private party, but not from a gun store 

Where did you learn this?

[silver]

nothing in any federal firearms regulation states that it is illegal for any person under the age of 21 to own a hand gun. as with any other handgun owner, it is illegal to possess them on federal property, and under the GFSZA illegal to take them on school (k-12) property (however, this is kind of a state issue as well b/c only federal agents can enforce federal law. does your local high school have an fbi agent present? and as such different states have different regulations regarding this.)  The only restriction placed on under 21s is purchasing hg's and hg ammo from licensed dealers. If you check into laws in all the states, you will note that some states ( montana is the only one i can think of right now) allow a person as young as 14 to be in possession of a handgun out side a private dwelling. Furthermore, the state of idaho allows any citizen 18+ to open carry, which has gained my participation and endorsement. it is very legal for me to have and carry one, and i do most everyday.

sure somebody else could buy one for me, but this would be considered a "straw purchase" and as such actually be illegal (however the word of the law in this area is a bit vague, which is why a dad buying his under 21 son/daugher an hg generally is not frowned upon).  while i could have my dad purchase one and be legal and all that, the idea here is for me to save a few dollars buying a nice used model, and remain nice and legal to give me my peace of mind.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

the full text of such bills can be found here^^^^^ in the atf reference guide. it is a current document, the cover page says 2005 b/c the aft has not updated it since 2005 as the laws have not been amended since the publication of that document.

on page 53 you will find criteria, under the heading "Sales or deliveries to prohibited categories of persons. " that a person must fulfill to be elligable to own a fire arm in the US:

resident/ non-alien, mentally stable, not a felon. etc, etc

this is found on page 55 of the above linked document

(3)Federal law prohibits, except in certain limited circumstances, anyone under 18 years of age from knowingly possessing a handgun, or any person from transferring a handgun to a person under 18.

and on page 155, how any person under 18 would be able to possess a handgun and remain federally legal

Additionally, it generally is unlawful for a person to transfer a handgun to a juvenile (a person less than 18 years of age) and it generally is unlawful for a juvenile to possess a handgun. Exceptions are provided for the transfer of a
handgun to and possession by a juvenile for the purposes of employment, ranching, farming, target practice or hunting as provided for in 18 U.S.C. 922(x).

there are other instances contained there, but this should satisfy any person as to the legality of such a transaction and legality of possession. Do not assume for a moment that I am ignorant of the law. I don't much like the idea of being charged with a felony, fined hundreds of thousands of dollars, and prohibited from owning a firearm for the rest of my life.  I like my rights, would like to keep them, and as a result have spent many, many hours studying federal and state laws regarding possession of guns of all types. For example, did you know that while it is illegal for me to purchase an NFA item from an FFL dealer until I'm 21 (SBR for example) under a form 4, I could legally "manufacture" one under a form 1. just a little tid-bit I've stumbled across in my studies.

silver

[popsgunner]

And now that you have posted this on this forum for EVERYONE to read that you are, IMHO, trying to obtain a handgun ILLEGALLY, don't bother coming to my store, if I see you at a gun show, I will tell everyone that you are under 21 and trying to do ....
STUPID SHIT.
Pops

[silver]

first of all, you have no idea who i actually am so have no way of doing that. Second, i have no idea what or where your store is and as such have no desire to go there as not only are you ignorant of the law, you clearly do not care to cater to anyone doing everything possible to be legal. if you actually read my post, particularly the part about how I'm not ignorant of such laws, you will notice a couple things.

i QUOTED the law verbatim, which yes i know is a little redundant
i gave you a reference of an ATF DOCUMENT that confirms legality of a private transaction
and i explained exactly what i was trying to FULLY WITHIN all applicable laws.

I already carry one everyday and am fully within the law. thank you for your input, but you sir are wrong and are wrongfully accusing me of trying commit an illegal act. Have a nice day and please do not spread fallacies about the law, or any other "STUPID SHIT" (your words not mine) to any of your customers.

ETA: aaahhh but i see i am mistaken assuming that i don't know you or your shop. I have actually been in to RK several times, and unfortunately spent money at your particular establishment. And twice, you commented that you were happy to see another citizen i.e. me, carrying a gun. I contemplated returning to spend more money, but now i am glad I spent my money at jeff's shop instead, and will be continuing to do so.

also, you would do well to read things like this;
" Do not assume for a moment that I am ignorant of the law. I don't much like the idea of being charged with a felony, fined hundreds of thousands of dollars, and prohibited from owning a firearm for the rest of my life.  I like my rights, would like to keep them, and as a result have spent many, many hours studying federal and state laws regarding possession of guns of all types." before bashing the poster

Have a nice day
silver

[popsgunner]

LOL, well said, I wish the law was that black and white, it's not, you will find out someday, stay safe.
You are correct, I don't you you , but the ATF investigators that troll this forum looking for young lads that POST stuff like that WILL.
You also have a nice day.
Pops

[silver]

lol now I'm less mad at you now that you admitted the truth in my statements, but I'm not sure what " i don't you you" means.id give it like a 99% chance of being a typo. clarify please

silver

[neby98]

What pops said is good advice.

[popsgunner]

LOL, typo, and since I have been around ....awhile, it IS good advice. You 'll still like me Silver, I'm hard to dislike.
Pops

[silver]

Well that is a bit subjective, and so to is my liking you as it happens. You may find it rather challenging to gain my favor after you placed a wrongful accusation of felony-type misconduct on the internet. I am not happy about that in the least.

[Jrhoney]

Lawlsauce 
I LOVE popcorn!

Technically, Silver is not wrong here. The Gun Control Act of 1968 only forbids sales of firearms by federally licensed dealers to persons under the age of 21, with the exception of rifles and shotguns to persons over the age of 18. So an individual over the age of 18 can buy a handgun from a private sale as long as they are not in violation of any other federal, state and local laws (ie, not a felon, user of controlled substances, etc...)

[silver]

Lawlsauce 
I LOVE popcorn!

Technically, Silver is not wrong here. The Gun Control Act of 1968 only forbids sales of firearms by federally licensed dealers to persons under the age of 21, with the exception of rifles and shotguns to persons over the age of 18. So an individual over the age of 18 can buy a handgun from a private sale as long as they are not in violation of any other federal, state and local laws (ie, not a felon, user of controlled substances, etc...)

thank you. And thank you as well JMack for that wonderful addition to my thread. so now that we have established, in the interpretation of 2 different people and 2 different sources the legality of said private transactions, does anybody have a pf9 they would like to sell? I don't care what finish it is really, but like I said, I prefer one of the 2 black versions, although I would also entertain offers of the cerakoted ones they began offering not too long ago.

if, due to this thread or for any reason really, you are uncomfortable with such a transaction, that is fine by me, enjoy the virtues of capitalism elsewhere if you wish.

For the rest of you, I would even happily sign a bill of sale so that if for any reason it did come up in the future u can say hey...ive got a receipt here and it says we were both from the same state, i verified age of over 18, i had no reason to believe the buyer (me) had any felonies,was mentally stable, etc, and private sales are/were legal in idaho at the time.

now heres to hoping somebody has a pf9 to sell, contacts me, and my thread doesn't get locked!

silver

[Jeff]

Worthless crap deleted.  Keep this on topic or take it to PM.

[popsgunner]

ok, so being this will be my last post here, just let me make clear, much to the joy of our popcorn eating friends...

Silver, you are doing something that is wrong. You are doing something that is sending the wrong message and putting all of US that have worked very hard to forward this industry in a bad spot, POSTING this on an open forum is asking for trouble.
I don't care how you read the law as written, the powers that be INTERPRET it as wrong.
IMHO,
pops

[silver]

Since you will no longer be posting on the topic, i will not bother asking you how i am doing something wrong or compromising the industry. I am clearly presenting evidence of law (because there was confusion on the subject), a willingness to follow it, and i clearly am willing to allow anybody who may sell me one to obtain my drivers license info, name, other related information, and signature. However, thanks to you, it may no longer be possible for me to find one from anybody who may read this thread. So congratulations, you may well have accomplished your goal. Right vs wrong is a moral (read "highly subjective/incredibly vague") issue, and a matter of personal interpretation. "The powers that be" wrote the laws that I am doing everything I can to follow.

I am NOT asking you, or any other ffl holder to slide me one under the table. I am NOT asking anybody else to do anything illegal to help me. In fact, I even encouraged people to do business elsewhere if they were uncomfortable. There is nothing "wrong" with what is happening here, in fact, I'm sure it happens several hundred, maybe even several thousand times every year across the country. Many states allow under 21's to carry, either open or concealed, and many of that demographic do. How else might an 18,19,20 year old legally obtain a handgun except through provisions for doing exactly this that are written into law.

well if nothing else, this thread has led to some relatively stimulating discussion, and I hope anybody who reads it learns something.

silver

[romo23]

I dont want to fuel any fires but when i was 20 I considered getting my own handgun and called the sheriffs dept. whom said that it is not illegal for me to possess a pistol however I may not buy one whether it be private sale or public sale. I can carry my fathers all day long and i can keep my fathers with me in another county and state but it cant be mine till 21.

good luck to you silver and pops is a great and nice guy/

[zona5101]

well if nothing else, this thread has led to some relatively stimulating discussion, and I hope anybody who reads it learns something.

And in that spirit I'll add that in Idaho under 21 is open carry only (in public) unless specific need can be shown to the county sheriff who may issue a CCW.

In Idaho a 18 year olds may own and possess handguns. (Owning and possessing isn't the same as buying)
Under  21 no CCW without specific exemption
No retail sales of handgun ammo under 21.

[silver]

I dont want to fuel any fires but when i was 20 I considered getting my own handgun and called the sheriffs dept. whom said that it is not illegal for me to possess a pistol however I may not buy one whether it be private sale or public sale. I can carry my fathers all day long and i can keep my fathers with me in another county and state but it cant be mine till 21.

good luck to you silver and pops is a great and nice guy/

This may have changed since u were 20 (as i have no idea when that actually was), and I'm not saying that you or the the sherif you asked was wrong at the time, but this is how Idaho law stands now.

title 18 chapter 33, Idaho code
 18-3302A. SALE OF WEAPONS TO MINORS. It shall be unlawful to directly or indirectly sell to any minor under the age of eighteen (18) years any weapon without the written consent of the parent or guardian of the minor. Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and shall be punished by a fine not in excess of one thousand dollars ($1,000), by imprisonment in the county jail for a term not in excess of six (6) months, or by both such fine and imprisonment. As used in this section, "weapon" shall mean any dirk, dirk knife, bowie knife, dagger, pistol, revolver or gun.

And in that spirit I'll add that in Idaho under 21 is open carry only (in public) unless specific need can be shown to the county sheriff who may issue a CCW.

In Idaho a 18 year olds may own and possess handguns. (Owning and possessing isn't the same as buying)
Under  21 no CCW without specific exemption
No retail sales of handgun ammo under 21.

all this is true as well. And I follow all such laws as i have already mentioned. If it helps anybody's ease of mind, I am not wanting this to conceal illegally. I just want it for things like riding my bike, as i often do in the hills around here, where i do not have a large, heavy, full-size pistol hanging on my camel back throwing it around.

likely however, due to the debate i have spurred here, my offer will probably become dormant and i likely will end up deleting it 60 days from now as per forum rules. Thant being said, thanks all of you who participated in the discussion, and more thanks for those of you who took my side regardless of whether it aligned with your personal moral values or not.

[popsgunner]

 

[tgibson]

FELLAS!!!  AS MUCH AS I'M ENJOYING THIS, TAKE IT SOMEPLACE ELSE!!  JEFF HAS ALREADY GIVEN US ONE CHANCE!  I DON'T WANT TO LOSE THE SWAP MEET PRIVILEDGES AGAIN!!

8. Don't reply to a Swap Meet post unless the question/comment is relevant to the item and of interest to the others.  The Swap Meet thread is not for chat.  Take the personal stuff to a Personal Message.  See this posters name?  Click on that to send them a PM.

Adios,
TG

[zona5101]

FELLAS!!!  AS MUCH AS I'M ENJOYING THIS, TAKE IT SOMEPLACE ELSE!!  JEFF HAS ALREADY GIVEN US ONE CHANCE!  I DON'T WANT TO LOSE THE SWAP MEET PRIVILEDGES AGAIN!! Adios,TG

Thanks TG. I hadn't even noticed it was swap meet, i just saw the discussion going on and jumped in!
I have moved the discussion portion of the thread here and retitled it.

Carry on!

[tgibson]

 

[agunforeachhand]

I can't resist, anyone got a rocket launcher I can buy? 

[ID Tactical]

More info from the ATF website...

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html#private-record-keeping

Under "unlicensed person" which is a private seller...

"Of course, the transferor/seller may not knowingly transfer a firearm to someone who falls within any of the categories of prohibited persons contained in the GCA"

And from Silver's link...

"Enactment of section 922(x) making it unlawful to sell handguns to juveniles (persons under 18 years of age) and for juveniles to possess handguns did not alter section 922(b)(1) of the GCA that continues to prohibit licensees from transferring handguns to persons under 21 years of age."

Good luck...

[romo23]

i was 20 three years ago, I just reconfirmed today with a friend who is a cop that you can not buy a firearm their are federal laws against it but no idaho laws he said.

[crj]

CHAPTER 33
FIREARMS, EXPLOSIVES AND OTHER DEADLY WEAPONS
 18-3302A. Sale of weapons to minors. It shall be unlawful to directly or indirectly sell to any minor under the age of eighteen (18) years any weapon without the written consent of the parent or guardian of the minor.

At 19; Silver is good to go, and quite possibly, the most well spoken 19 yr old in Idaho.
 

[zona5101]

CHAPTER 33
FIREARMS, EXPLOSIVES AND OTHER DEADLY WEAPONS
 18-3302A. Sale of weapons to minors. It shall be unlawful to directly or indirectly sell to any minor under the age of eighteen (18) years any weapon without the written consent of the parent or guardian of the minor.

At 19; Silver is good to go, and quite possibly, the most well spoken 19 yr old in Idaho.
 

The law in question is a federal law. It is a federal law that prohibits the sale of handguns and handgun ammunition to persons under 21.

Try this: find a willing high schooler, have them get a note from their mom, then go into Cabellas and try and buy a handgun.

[romo23]

The law in question is a federal law. It is a federal law that prohibits the sale of handguns and handgun ammunition to persons under 21.

Try this: find a willing high schooler, have them get a note from their mom, then go into Cabellas and try and buy a handgun.

As zona stated it is a federal law that is the issue, there are no idaho laws that restrict him from buying a handgun from private party. good luck to you either way. their are so many different laws and different sections to search through it would be quite hard to assure 100 percent you can buy from private party. I would recommend contacting the boise atf office and asking them they will know for sure. They are nice people i have dealt with them before with surrendering a firearm we found when my grandpa passed.

[crj]

Yeah, Federal is talking about dealers selling to persons under 21.  The only thing I can find about private sales is " unlawful to those under 18."

19 and 20 year olds shouldnt be allowed to defend themselves.
Those 18 and under? Forget it!  Not even a knife for you! Creeps never go after the young ones anyways.
Now go die for your country kids... 

[zona5101]

Yeah, Federal is talking about dealers selling to persons under 21.  The only thing I can find about private sales is " unlawful to those under 18."

reread ID Tactical's post. It specifically addresses private party transactions with restrictions on prohibited persons the same as the law covering dealers (from federal law)

You can at under 18 own and possess a handgun in ID. No one is disputing that (I don't believe). It is the purchase of the handgun itself whether private party or licensed dealer that is in question (specifically under Federal Law).

Bottom line is what Romo says - there are so many laws to wade through it is almost imposable for layman or lawyer to really know. Considering the consequences if you're wrong could be pretty steep... Felon, never own a gun for life - you know the drill....

[emathey]

reread ID Tactical's post. It specifically addresses private party transactions with restrictions on prohibited persons the same as the law covering dealers (from federal law)

You can at under 18 own and possess a handgun in ID. No one is disputing that (I don't believe). It is the purchase of the handgun itself whether private party or licensed dealer that is in question (specifically under Federal Law).

Bottom line is what Romo says - there are so many laws to wade through it is almost imposable for layman or lawyer to really know. Considering the consequences if you're wrong could be pretty steep... Felon, never own a gun for life - you know the drill....

His GCA quote talks about licensees transferring handguns to persons under 21.

[crj]

What did I get myself into?   

Q: What record-keeping procedures should be followed when two private individuals want to engage in a firearms transaction?
When a transaction takes place between private (unlicensed) persons who reside in the same State, the Gun Control Act (GCA) does not require any record keeping. A private person may sell a firearm to another private individual in his or her State of residence and, similarly, a private individual may buy a firearm from another private person who resides in the same State. It is not necessary under Federal law for a Federal firearms licensee (FFL) to assist in the sale or transfer when the buyer and seller are “same-State” residents. Of course, the transferor/seller may not knowingly transfer a firearm to someone who falls within any of the categories of prohibited persons contained in the GCA. See 18 U.S.C. §§ 922(g) and (n). However, as stated above, there are no GCA-required records to be completed by either party to the transfer.


Again no federal law in the link about selling to persons under 21... In fact GCA doesnt even care about any records being kept on same resident state FTF transactions.

[Grumblecakes]

gonna wade into this one... is it worth the risk? if the question does come up, ie your arrested with it or what ever. Is it gonna be worth the trouble? You and the internet lawyers, even the sheriffs office may all side one way BUT if the atf/feds get involved they may and probably will interpret it another, even if you win a legal case your sill out your time and money. And will probably get flagged/denied when purchasing a firearm in the future. personally i wouldn't chance it

[zona5101]

His GCA quote talks about licensees transferring handguns to persons under 21.

Again no federal law in the link about selling to persons under 21... In fact GCA doesnt even care about any records being kept on same resident state FTF transactions.

 here's how I read it  (YMMV)

Step one - restrictions for regular joes:
Under "unlicensed person" which is a private seller...
"Of course, the transferor/seller may not knowingly transfer a firearm to someone who falls within any of the categories of prohibited persons contained in the GCA"


Step two - ties regular joes to GCA:
"Enactment of section 922(x) making it unlawful to sell handguns to juveniles (persons under 18 years of age) and for juveniles to possess handguns did not alter section 922(b)(1) of the GCA that continues to prohibit licensees from transferring handguns to persons under 21 years of age."




I don't care either way but i say it can be trouble and who needs it? Someone suggested a call to BATF and that's probably the only way to really know how the Feds (those guys that would be doing the prosecuting) feel about it.

[popsgunner]

LOL,
 

[tgibson]

grumblecakes makes a good point.  Why don't you just NOT risk it, be patient and wait till you are 21?  If you can be in possession of one, why don't you come shoot some matches, take some classes and get proficient with it.  Then at 21 you'll be that much more ready to carry one.  Not trying to disrespect you, but there are very few people under the age of 25 who are mentally mature enough to not only carry a gun, but have given serious thought to TAKING ANOTHER HUMAN BEINGS LIFE.  
This might be you.  I don't know.  All I'm getting at is another year or two of "life experience" isn't going to hurt anything.  Just sayin'.
Adios,
TG

[Evergreen]

, but there are very few people under the age of 25 who are mentally mature enough to not only carry a gun, but have given serious thought to TAKING ANOTHER HUMAN BEINGS LIFE. 
This might be you.  I don't know.  All I'm getting at is another year or two of "life experience" isn't going to hurt anythi

ANd yet, this is the majority of the age group that has served and protected our country throughout the ages.  Personally, there isn't many people under the age of 90 who are mentally mature enough with serious thought of taking human life.  I, personally, think if an 18 year old is old enough to serve and die for our country, that they should have every right to carry a handgun.

With that being said the law is the law and I don't believe any seller should do anything to put themselves in harm's way.  There was a guy in Washington who wanted to buy a rifle from me in a FTF deal, because he said he didn't believe in FFLs.  Being an Oregon resident, that would have been a felony.  Well, I'm thinking he was either a felon/ATF agent, but I turned down the deal, not because I believe it is wrong to sell to someone across the border, but I don't want to risk committing a felony by the anti-RKBA laws that still rule over us.  The law is the law and you are better off fighting it through legal means then by becoming a felon.

I see the OP's dilemma.  From reading his posts, I feel his intelligent and responsible and certainly should have the right to conceal a handgun. After all, he is a tax paying adult, an American citizen at the age of 18-20.   However, the laws are what they are and he should not put himself in a position where he can jeopardize his freedom due to draconian laws. 

My only thought for those with fears of maturity under the age of 21 would be to mandate an extended firearms training program for those under 21 to acquire a permit.  That is just my thoughts.   Personally, I think anyone who can pass through a long firearms training course, regardless of age, is better equipped to handle a handgun then many, unqualified CHL holders.

[Jeff]

Back off topic again.

I (Sawtooth Tactical and BoiseShooters.com) agree with zona5101's interpretation.  You (as in anyone reading this) can decide for yourself.