Topic: SBR questions

[broncovan]

I've been looking at getting a SBR upper for quite a while now and think I'm finally ready to get the process started.  Having purchased a couple cans already, I've gone through most of this process before.  I also know that the lower has to be engraved w/my name etc.  What I'm not sure about is:

1.  Caliber, I expect to end up with a 5.56, 9mm, 22lr, and probably a 300 blackout.  Do all of the possible calibers have to be listed on the form, and on the lower, or can it be a "multiple" stamp for SBR's like on regular AR lowers?  Or does that matter at all anymore?

2.  Barrel length, I want a 10.5 in all but the 22lr, that one may end up being a lot shorter.  On the form, it asks for barrel length.  It's my understanding that one SBR lower = many uppers.  What if one barrel length is 5" shorter than the other?

3.  Overall length, is that measurement with or without the stock extended?  What if I list 28" overall length for the centerfire cartridges, but have a 23" length with the 22lr upper?  

I may have one or two more questions that I can't think of right now, but I'm sure I'm missing something.

Thanks!

[J Mack]

The easy answer is the firearm in question MUST match the description of the firearm on the form-1.
The ATF says if you change the firearm from the original description you will submit it in writing quote: “The registrant shall notify the NFA Branch, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, 244 Needy Road, Martinsburg, WV 25405, in writing, of any change to the description of the firearms in item 4, or any change to the address of the registrant.” 
Interwebs expert Guy’s will push their luck with things like “MULTI” for caliber or “BLOWME” for serial number but if it goes to court it will be your lawyer arguing your case with the ATF’s lawyer’s and if I wasn’t willing to go there I would ask the ATF my exact question and follow there advice to the letter and not the advice of us interwebs expert guy’s.     

[Shade OGrey]

Given the history of the BATFE sometimes saying one thing and doing another, it would be safest to contact them for complete information.
Call the local branch office (Boise office 208-334-1160) make sure you get and write down the name of the agent you speak with. Ask that a written and signed letter be sent to you explaining/clarifying the regulation and process. (Consider recording the phone conversation. Idaho law only requires one party to consent to recording. You do consent to that right?)
And write them at their main office requesting clarification.
I think the correct address for that is:
(U.S. Department of Justice 
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
1519 Cabin Branch Drive
Landover, MD  20785-3816)

It may be that they will simply refer you to the local branch office.
The basic idea is to cover you ass as much as possible with hard, written, documentation.

(IANAL! Get professional assistance when making decisions that can effect the remainder of your life and that of your family.)

[Jeff]

IMO

The form is for the SBR you are building now.  Not what uppers you may put on it later.  So, if you are building a 10.5" 5.56 then put that on the form.  Use overall length with stock collapsed.

[TrooperBrian]

IMO

The form is for the SBR you are building now.  Not what uppers you may put on it later.  So, if you are building a 10.5" 5.56 then put that on the form.  Use overall length with stock collapsed.

He's right, on a Form 1, you are manufacturing a firearm, even if it has already been "created" by someone else. You are taking a non-NFA rifle and manufacturing an NFA rifle, in this case a Short Barrel Rifle. In the eyes of the BATFE, the "firearm part" is the lower ONLY. Therefore you are registering that lower, regardless of what uppers you put on it, which is the reason you can buy several short uppers for one SBR.

As far as overall length is concerned, the length is measured at shortest possible configuration. So if it is 28" extended, it must be permanently fixed in that position to not be considered an SBR. Similarly how there are 14.5" barrels with permanently attached flash hiders to make them 16".

[J Mack]

Therefore you are registering that lower, regardless of what uppers you put on it, which is the reason you can buy several short uppers for one SBR.

TrooperBrian honestly did you ask Vader the question and just repost his answer here?

This is the exact advice I would check with ATF before considering.
The ATF uses the word intent when talking about what will happen with NFA items.
The way I understood Broncovan’s question is he was asking what is the ATF’s view on operating in the gray area outside of what’s specified on the form 1 and possessing multiple short barrel uppers and only one registered lower is definitely somewhere I wouldn’t go without a letter on ATF letterhead affirming I could.
One weapon one form 1. Make them match. New form 1 for each new weapon. Make them match. Easy, its only $200 now to keep you from answering awkward questions from the ATF later.  
Remember when in doubt ask the ATF not us interwebs expert guy’s.

[TrooperBrian]

This is the exact advice I would check with ATF before considering.
The ATF uses the word intent when talking about what will happen with NFA items.
The way I understood Broncovan’s question is he was asking what is the ATF’s view on operating in the gray area outside of what’s specified on the form 1 and possessing multiple short barrel uppers and only one registered lower is definitely somewhere I wouldn’t go without a letter on ATF letterhead affirming I could.
One weapon one form 1. Make them match. New form 1 for each new weapon. Make them match. Easy, its only $200 now to keep you from answering awkward questions from the ATF later.  
Remember when in doubt ask the ATF not us interwebs expert guy’s.

Fair enough, it is in fact a very grey area. So unofficially, you should be alright as long as those short barrel uppers are never used on a non-NFA lower. Email your local field office and ask for an answer in writing, I've always received email responses within 24 hours.

[J Mack]

So unofficially, you should be alright as long as

TrooperBrian will you ask Vader a question for me and repost his answer here?


So unofficially I'm in possession of all the components to assemble a short barreled full auto M-16 with a suppressor without any of the appropriate paper work. Will I be alright as long as?

Note I said “components to assemble” not ability to manufacture. 



Brian,
I know it looks like I’m bustin your balls but how would feel if some normally honest guy without common sense took your advice and committed an unknowing crime putting himself and his family in jeopardy. Choose your words carefully when talking about NFA items and the ATF and make sure any of your “facts” can be confirmed on the ATF’s official web site or letter head.


Sorry Broncovan for the hijack, I’m done now.     

[emathey]

For what it's worth I recently got a form 1 back that had "multiple calibers and multiple barrel lengths" in block h.

[luckypunk]

TrooperBrian will you ask Vader a question for me and repost his answer here?


 a short barreled full auto M-16  

No such thing.


Also.....the caliber & length are superfluous on the form 1


unless the resident ATF mole can show me where a person with a properly registered SBR (that did not fit the configuration listed on the form 1) has been convicted or even charged.

[hessmanca]

IMHO...
If you are willing to risk your freedom and your ability to own any firearm....ever, then by all means try to buck the system.  There are a few loop holes in the registration of SBR's, but really... do you want to take that chance.
I concure with JMack, an extra $200 for an additional stamp is well worth my freedom.  In addition if you are applying for an additional set up, (ie .22, 300 blkout, etc) I would pick up another lower and make a completely separate weapon, that way there is absolutely no confusion or ambiguity.

IMHO...

[MtGoat]

So if you register an AR-15 lower with the intent to put a 10.5" 22 lower, a 5.5" 22Lower and eventually a 223 10.5" or a 14.5" upper on the lower one should purchase get 3 or 4 lowers and pay $600 or $800 in tax stamp fees plus the cost of the lowers (say $600) which would be an extra $1200 for a $400 SBR receiver.  Hmmmm. 
Sort of takes the flexibility out of the AR15 platform.

I need to send a note off to the ATF as I was heading down to discuss how to get paperwork for a SBR started...but for multpile uppers...hmmm.

Pat

[MtGoat]

I have been trying all afternoon to get onto the ATF website to submit a question about the different uppers for a SBR AR15.  The website sends error messages all day.  Do they not aloow people on the website or take questions via the internet or has Irene been mucking with them?

Pat

[J Mack]

I have been trying all afternoon to get onto the ATF website to submit a question about the different uppers for a SBR AR15.  

Pat

Mtgoat

The local ATF guys.
Call (208) 334-1164
John /Jeff  or Stewart

Ask the ATF about “Constructive Possession of an SBR” and how it applies to your plans with all the parts in your possession including those not associated with the SBR’s.

[MtGoat]

Thanks, I got onto the website and submitted a question(s) this morning.
 
I am not sure what all you meant by "Constructive Possession of an SBR” and how it applies to your plans with all the parts in your possession including those not associated with the SBR’s"  I would just like to legally own one SBR receiver and be legally allowed to switch uppers.
 
Can I buy and register say a PWS 10.5" 5.56 gun then buy a Noveske 10.5" DGI upper and a 11.5" Spikes 22LR upper for one SBR reciever or do I need to purchase a stamp for each upper or send them notification or buy/build 2 lowers to register as the uppers are not typically the serialized part.

I can see both sides but neither makes perfect sense. 

If I have a registered SBR why would anyone care how many uppers I had for it as long as I never installed the upper on another non-registered lower.

I eagerly await a reply from Washington, hopefully with clear boundary conditions so no lines are crossed.   Fortunately this is a longer term project and I am not in a huge hurry to get a definative response.

Pat 

[J Mack]

In a nutshell,
The ATF thinks of your SBR as a firearm not a lower and when you fill out your form 1 you are stating you intend to make a firearm. I don’t know any way to register just your lower as a multi-use platform 


"Constructive Possession of an SBR” is the term used by the ATF when they arrest someone with all the parts to assemble a SBR without the proper paper work regardless if the weapon is assembled or not. As LuckyPunk stated above you don’t hear about the ATF targeting people with paperwork that’s not 100% accurate but I won’t assume it’s impossible. 

[hessmanca]

In regards to an AR platform being multifunction and versatile... They absolutely are, the restriction on that comes when you start to apply NFA rules and regulations.  You all know that as long as you are within the "legal" standards for a rifle you can do almost anything to an AR.  If you are wanting multiple NFA regulated parts/uppers on your weapon, then you will need to follow the additional regulations, which may mean more money.

I would definitely get something in writing from the ATF in regards to a multiple caliber/barrel lengths for your registered lower.

I am interested to hear what they have to say, so please keep us informed.

[Jeff]

And yet:

For what it's worth I recently got a form 1 back that had "multiple calibers and multiple barrel lengths" in block h.

[MtGoat]

Here is the response from the BATF NFA Branch.  It seems like a reasonable request and process.


"Please dedicate one barrel length and one caliber on you ATF Form 1; after the approved form is returned to you, you may send a letter to the address noted below indicating that you will have interchangeable barrels (provide lengths) and/or interchangeable calibers (provide calibers):

 

DOJ/BATF
NFA Branch
244 Needy Road
Suite 1250
Martinsburg, WV 25405"

 

[J Mack]

"Please dedicate one barrel length and one caliber on you ATF Form 1; after the approved form is returned to you, you may send a letter to the address noted below indicating that you will have interchangeable barrels (provide lengths) and/or interchangeable calibers (provide calibers):

That would be sweet if you could get them to agree in a letter to let you have multiple complete uppers for a single lower!

[MtGoat]

This seems like a reasonable process.  Now to start the paperwork on a SBR lower and decide what to start out with for the upper...piston or DI


"We can only accept the notification of additional barrel lengths and calibers after the Form 1 is approved.  You are notifying ATF of the additional information; we in turn will forward a letter to you acknowledging the updated information.  There are no fees incurred with the addition of a barrel or caliber conversion. "

 

From: patncindy@q.com [mailto:patncindy@q.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 5:30 PM
To: FES Division
Subject: Re: NFA QUESTION: FW: SBR Questions not Covered in the FAQ

 

Thank you for your timely response. 
I am a bit confused.  Is it easier to have the SBR licensed THEN send in the notification for another caliber or barrel length or should the notification go in with the initial paperwork? 
Is this just notification of another barrel/caliber or would I need to wait for approval/authorization before the new upper was purchased? 
Are there any fees with this notification?

I am sorry for all of the questions but I am new to this NFA process and want to make sure that I am following the rules correctly.

Thank You
Pat Patterson
Middleton, Idaho

[JoshAston]

Once the firearms is registered as an SBR there is no requirement to notify ATF of any changes.  ATF is required to update the registry to reflect any changes, so they request that you notify them; but there is no legal requirement to do so.

Also, OAL is measured with the stock fully extended.

All of this info is available on the ATF web site.

[TrooperBrian]

Here is the response from the BATF NFA Branch.  It seems like a reasonable request and process.


"Please dedicate one barrel length and one caliber on you ATF Form 1; after the approved form is returned to you, you may send a letter to the address noted below indicating that you will have interchangeable barrels (provide lengths) and/or interchangeable calibers (provide calibers):

 

DOJ/BATF
NFA Branch
244 Needy Road
Suite 1250
Martinsburg, WV 25405"

 

 

Bwahaha Needy Road..how appropriate.

[kaen3e]

here is a simple solution.  buy a registered machine gun lower, lightning link, or RDIAS and forget all of this.  machine gun stamp trumps all.