Topic: Will Buffalo Bore 340 gr +P+ Hurt my New Ruger Redhawk 44?

[Evergreen]

I just purchased a brand new Ruger Redhawk 44Mag with a 4in barrel. I'm going on a trip to Glacier NP and decided to ditch my old S&W 629-4 4in, because I want the gun primarily to be used for bear defense and the 629 just cannot handle the heavy loads like the Ruger. After purchasing the Ruger and seeing its solid construction I really feel much happier with it than the Smith. Needless to say, even though I love the Smith, I cannot afford to keep it and will be getting rid of it..

I also own a S&W 460v which supposedly can handle the heaviest of the heaviest, yet the Buffalo Bore ammo screws up the gun and I have extraction issues, as well as cylinder locking issues. I had to force open my cylinder once as it got stuck after the last round. Only through constant hammer cocking and pulling the trigger could I finally get it to budge. I'm told there are many reasons why the Buffalo Bore 460 doesn't work in a .460. Everything from being too hot, to have improper dimensions on the casings or bullets, etc. I don't know why, but Buffalo Bore is out for my 460.

Now, I am told that the Ruger Redhawk can handle the heavy loads. So, I see Buffalo Bore makes a very nice 44 mag round that almost seems on par with a .454 Casull round. Since, I am going into Grizzly Bear country in Montana, I would like to have the best load I can handle. Also, I would like to do a little plinking and practicing with the round I load for my hikes. Basically, I would like to shoot a box or so. Would, using the Buffalo Bore 340gr +P+ hurt my Ruger Redhawk or can it take a good number of these rounds without any risk of abuse? I know my Smith could not even handle the 320gr hardcast COrbon loads. S&W told me themself on the phone not to shoot more than 3 or 4 rounds ever for the life of this gun for practice. I am told the Redhawk can take a steady supply of these without any issues. I guess, I know the Buffalo Bore is pushing the 44 mag to the limits and want to make sure there won't be any repercussions with this round. I do want to get a feel for it if I will be carrying it with me.

I'd appreciate to hear people's opinions. Do most people think I should stay with the Corbon Hunter 320gr Hardcast round or would it be to my advantage to use the 340gr +P+ Buffalo Bores, considering the Ruger Redhawk, is supposedly built like a tank .

My thoughts are accuracy won't be an issue, as if I am being charged by a Black Bear or Brown Bear I would only get one or two shots and would wait until it got close. For the most part I will rely on pepper spray for protection, but if I am in that unfortunate situation where all I can reach for is my gun, I'd like the best round I can get for that situation. I feel the more knockdown power the better.

I'm assuming I can handle the recoil of this round, because the Redhawk is a thick frame and I can handle the recoil of the .460 rounds out of my 5in S&W 460v. I'm assuming it would be somewhat comparable to that, although my 460v does have a compensator.

[MtGoat]

Call and talk to Tim.  He used to be in Salmon but moved across the state line after the dust up over shooting some wolves. 
I shoot a fair amount of BB ammo (44 special, 44mag, 45/70, 38special and 357mag).  It is loaded very stout and you must make sure that your gun can handle the load.
Garrett makes some nice stiff loads as well.

Pat

[RGinIdaho]

You didn't mention which Redhawk in 44mag so...

I run 320gr handloads in my SUPER Redhawk at 1325fps without issue. The other Redhawk(not super) is not as stout and I probably wouldn't push one as hard. I don't run the heavies in my Super Blackhawk. I would never run them in a M29 even if they would fit the cylinder.

[NoviceHunter]

500 rounds of buffalo bore 300gr stuff messed up my smith .44.  Back to smith it went, came back perfect.

Rugers are hell for stout, and just how many of these things are you going to shoot at $2/each?  Only two reasons to buy a ruger revolver over a smith: durability and not having the damn lock. Shoot it.  On the slim chance something happens, send it in for repair.  Further, given that BB stated that it works in a redhawk, it's their butt in a sling if their ammo damages your gun; they know that, and they don't want to be buying everyone new guns, so you can hope there's some data behind that claim.

[carharttfarmer]

Hurt a ruger ? didnt know that was possible 
i load my 45 blackhawk , regular redhawk and my dads super redhawk 454 at max loads with no problems ruger are built to handle the hot stuff

[Evergreen]

500 rounds of buffalo bore 300gr stuff messed up my smith .44.  Back to smith it went, came back perfect.

WOW.    You shot 500 rounds of BB out of a 629?  That is scary. I am assuming you had to pay Smith for the repair.  I've heard stories of cylinders being mangled to the point of no return shooting hot Buff Bore out of 629s.  

Rugers are hell for stout, and just how many of these things are you going to shoot at $2/each?  Only two reasons to buy a ruger revolver over a smith: durability and not having the damn lock. Shoot it.  On the slim chance something happens, send it in for repair.  Further, given that BB stated that it works in a redhawk, it's their butt in a sling if their ammo damages your gun; they know that, and they don't want to be buying everyone new guns, so you can hope there's some data behind that claim.

Thanks, this is exactly what I wanted to hear.  From posting on a few forums and from all the responses I have received, I think the general consensus is that the Redhawk will have no problem with this round.  Well, I am paying about $1.6 /round for them.  I want to shoot a box of them, so I can get a good feel for them and make sure there is no cylinder locking or extraction issues.  It didn't take more than 5 rounds of Buffalo Bore .460 before they screwed up my gun.  I have heard that Tim has not been helpful with issues of his .460 ammo.  He claims it is for the older model .460s.   That sounds kinda dumb to me. I mean if S&W 460 won't shoot out of any S&W 460 gun, what is the point??  I've read enough people who unsuccessfully been able to receive any help from him on the issue.  Right now I am sitting on like 20 rounds of this ammo I want to get rid of.  IF you know anybody who wants to buy it from me, let me know..  I doubt he will give me my money back for it.  

Anyhow, it seems the Buff Bore 44 mag +P+ works well in the Ruger, so I will give it a chance.  I would like to go through a box of it, before I use it for carrying in the woods. I'm hoping the recoil isn't more than shooting the .460 Buffalo Bore rounds out of my 460v.  That was quite a punch.  

I will be putting on Packmayr Presentation grips on my Ruger before I shoot these rounds. I don't want to shoot this gun with the exposed metal backstrap.

[MtGoat]

I don't know if Pachmayr still makes their deccelerator gripper grips but they worked wonders on a Colt Anaconda.  You might want to look for a set of these as they help even more to tame recoil.

Pat

[Evergreen]

I already bought the Presentation grips..  I hope they work.. The Decelerator grips are made for the Ruger Redhawk, but I stayed away from them due to the large number of bad reviews they received on Midway USA.  It seems there was some fitting issues on the Redhawk model grips, where they were too thin in some spots.  The Presentation grips got good reviews, so I hope they do the job.  I believe the Presentation grips are what I had for my 629 and they allowed me to shoot my 629 all day, removing any pain from being whacked by the backstrap.  The grips I had for the Smith didnt have finger groves, so I am assuming this is the Presentation model, which I just order for my Ruger from Midway.  I should be getting them early next week.

[NoviceHunter]

WOW.    You shot 500 rounds of BB out of a 629?  That is scary. I am assuming you had to pay Smith for the repair.  I've heard stories of cylinders being mangled to the point of no return shooting hot Buff Bore out of 629s.

I expected to pay for it, but they did it as a warranty repair.  I asked them to invoice me, but they wouldn't.  After that many rounds, the cylinder would counter-rotate under recoil sometimes.  Maybe every 100 rounds of regular 240gr stuff, and every 3-5 rounds of the hot stuff.  Near as I can determine, all Smith did was put in a stiffer cylinder stop spring.  Runs just fine, and I don't baby it.  I have no idea if it just had a weak spring to begin with, or the heavier recoiling stuff made it unhappy.

By the way, when I asked Smith about heavy 300gr loads, they advised no more than 100-200 over the life of the gun.  Nice to hear they have their story straight.

Now my 329PD, on the other hand...  3 rounds of the hot and heavy stuff, and the spring on the damn lock jumped loose, and it locked itself.  You know, that lock they claim has never failed?

I will be putting on Packmayr Presentation grips on my Ruger before I shoot these rounds. I don't want to shoot this gun with the exposed metal backstrap.

Oh hell yes.  I'm very glad the x-frame grip fits on n-frames.   

[Evergreen]

Well, I Just got back from the range and I am going to post a separate thread later with a little range report of my new Ruger Redhawk and the Buffalo Bore.

All I got to say about the Buffalo Bore 340gr +P+, is  ..  Ah, my hands are ruined for life.. 

  

Ok..    Now, for an honest report.. I shot this Buffalo Bore 340gr +P+ out of my brand new Ruger Redhawk and I will say WOW.. What awesome ammo.  I was afraid after all the posts on this and other forums about this ammo that my hands would little crack after the first round.  Well, to my amazement, this Buffalo Bore ammo is a really kitty cat out of my Ruger Redhawk.  I was like, WOW, is this stuff really +P+?  My only fear now is that this stuff is not as hot and fast as Tim says it is, but assuming that Buffalo Bore is a company with integrity, I trust it must certainly be as fast and powerful as advertised.  I was shocked that my 240gr Fiocchi rounds had the same felt recoil as this heavy duty +P+ ammo.  Even my Double Tap 320gr Hardcast rounds had a bit more thump to them then the Buffalo Bore.  Anyway, considering that I have .454 power out of my Redhawk with almost no major pain of recoil, I think this stuff is awesome.  I said I would only shoot 6 rounds, but I saw that I was able to get some decent groups (relatively , considering I am not the greatest shooter) and I decided to shoot more.  I ended up shooting 18 rounds total and the only thing that stopped me was the price of these rounds..    

Oh yeah, my testing did me well.. I was planning on packing with 320gr Corbon HC LFN rounds for my trip, but I am glad I didn't!   It turns out my Ruger Redhawk hates the Corbon Hunter 320gr HC LFN ammo.  This is shocking, but the stuff locked up my cylinder just after firing one round.  No matter what I tried, any attempt to fire a second round with this ammo failed. At first I thought it was my gun and I started to panic.  Then, I ejected the Corbons and put them away.  I thought my gun was having an issue so I then proceeded to test out various types of other 44Mag ammo and each fired very well without any problems.  I might want to talk with other people about this and tell Corbon the issue I had with these rounds and see if they can reimburse me.  At $1.80 a piece, they are not cheap.

Anyway, I just thought I share my little range report.  I'm glad to know also from other people here of the tolerances of my Redhawk.  It gave me a piece of mind when shooting this and the other heavy loads I was today.

[NoviceHunter]

"Locked up" how?  That's very very serious in a revolver.  Did the slugs jump crimp?

[Evergreen]

"Locked up" how?  That's very very serious in a revolver.  Did the slugs jump crimp?

I'm not sure at all.. But, the gun operated perfectly with every other ammo except the Corbon Hunter..  I can bring some of them with me when I come to Boise in a few days.. Maybe, somebody with more knowledge than me can give me their assessment.  I am worried about it, but I cannot believe a brand new Ruger Redhawk out of the box has a problem, when all the other ammo worked flawlessly before and after the Corbon issue.  The only thing I could think of was I had them in speed loaders for a year or so.  However, I proved theory wrong when I fired some Hornady's that were in the same speedloaders and they shot wonderfully.  It must be some issue with the crimping or, maybe, case sizes.  I had the same type of problem with cylinder locking and extraction issues with the Buffalo Bore .460 in my S&W 460v.  However, the Corbon ejected just fine, but if I tried firing a around with the Corbon loaded the cylinder would lock.  Maybe, locking is the best term here. Let's say the cylinder would fail to turn and chamber the round.  I would pull the trigger and the trigger would be stuck and the cylinder could only make a small turn before it would jam.  

If I was depending on this round for my bear gun, I would be in a lot of trouble.   I need to figure out why the Corbon's totally get screwed up.  It could have been one bad round, as the first one fired without any problem.  But, after that happened, I would not trust using Corbon's for my defense load.  I had zero encounters with any other round.

I'm interested to hear other people's opinions about this issue.

[NoviceHunter]

I wouldn't bet that just because it's new that it doesn't have any issues.  I've gotten *plenty* of guns with minor factory issues.

You need to either identify some physical characteristic of that ammo that's causing the issue (OAL too long, bullets jumped crimp, oversized rims catching on something), or else you need to treat that gun as suspect until you can have a gunsmith look it over.  Are the slugs sticking out of the end of the cylinder at all?  Primers not pressed in fully and catching on something?  From the sounds of things, it probably is something about the ammo, but you should be able to see it.  If it's not, something in the lockwork is messed up.  Don't bet your life on it until you figure it out.

As for recoil, lighter slugs that are moving faster tend to have a more unpleasant *snap* feel than the heavier stuff that feels more like a push.  That'd be my guess, anyway.

[Evergreen]

Well, I do think there is room for concern.  And, when it first occurred I immediately suspected it must have been the gun.  However, I am almost confident it is the ammo, not the gun.  I shot about 150 rounds today out of the gun.  Of course, I do realize new guns can have factory-related issues, but I would think older guns would have many more problems, especially with jamming, cylinder locking or timing issues. 

As far as the question about if the slugs sticking out, I don't believe so.  The reason I say this is that I examined the very long slugs on the Buffalo Bore rounds at the front of the cylinder and they were housed within the chambers of the cylinder and not sticking out.  Actually, there was still a little bit of space in the chamber, although these Buffalo Bore rounds seemed to be about as big of a load as any 44 Mag revolver could take.  I didn't look at the Corbons, but the Buffalo Bore rounds are longer than the COrbons and were not protruding past the chambers of the cylinder.

I think a may have lost the round that was jamming up my gun as I released them from the cylinder. They flew onto the ground and I couldn't recover one of the rounds.  I have the other 3 Corbon rounds, but I cannot say I notice anything in particular about them.  As I said, the first Corbon round fired ok, but it locked when I tried firing the second.

I will say I shot about 70 or so rounds before I had the jam.  Then I removed the Corbon ammo and shot another 70 or so rounds of various types of ammo.  If my gun really is at fault, then why did it start working flawlessly once I removed this ammo?   

I guess I am a bit concerned, because I am going on a trip to Idaho/Montana in a couple days and I wanted to bring this with me as my bear defense gun.  It would really suck if I had to leave it at home and then ship it back to Ruger or a gunsmith.  I'm somewhat hoping this was just a simple ammo issue.

If anyone else thinks from what I have written that I should leave the gun home, I'd like to know.  However, after firing it all day, with even some very heavy loads, and just one hiccup, I don't really want to put the blame on the gun.  Although, I definitely am eager to hear any information people want to give me. 

NoviceHunter, my one question to you now is how may the lockwork be messed up, considering all the other 150 rounds fired fine, except for the one Corbon round?  I like to know what possible problems there may be, as I will be depending on this gun when I am on the trails soon.

[Evergreen]

I've included some pics comparing the Corbon round that I think was the culprit of the jam to two other rounds I fired today and had no problems with.

In the pics left to right is: MagTech 240gr JSP, Corbon Hunter 320gr LFN, Double Tap 320gr WFN.

If anyone can see any issues from the ammo I put in the picture, I'd appreciate to know.

[NoviceHunter]

Nothing obviously wrong looking at those pics.  Heh, and I trust older guns more than the newer stuff, actually.  "They don't make them like they used to."  Most common defect from the factory is a weak spring.  1 failure out of 140 would worry me, especially in a revolver (it'd worry me in a Glock; it wouldn't surprise me in a 1911.  ;-)  ).

There are lots of gunsmiths in Boise, including one that reads this board.  So you could bring it and and have it looked at here.  Or play the odds.  The small chance of a failure with known good ammo multiplied with the tiny chance of needing it puts you into infinitesimal land, statistically.

Trust your gut.

[Evergreen]

I am only going to be in Boise a few days.  Also, I have spent so much money for the trip and paid a good price for the new Redhawk.  I'm not sure how much a local gunsmith would charge me to examine the gun.  At least where I live, gunsmiths will charge you a lot for just about anything.  For example, one time I had a stuck casing in the chamber of my AR-10 when I lived in Bend and the gunsmith charged me like $150 and I had to wait 2 weeks for him to remove it.  Assuming this is a factory defect from Ruger, I shouldn't even have to pay for any repairs with the gun.  Although, I obviously cannot send the gun back to Ruger until after my trip.  However, I am still feeling that it is the ammo and not the gun.  1 out of 140 in a revolver makes me think it is the ammo.   The piece of resin BTW I think may have resulted in the casing to stick out without me knowing, it is hard to see in the pic, but it does protrude a little bit.  I've heard a few theories from people on other boards, such as bulging primers, etc.  I also realized that I shot 2 rounds of the Corbon before it locked up.  It seems to be an issue with one specific round.  

If this was a locking issue, why is it the moment I removed the ammo the problem went away?  You see, after the first jam, I opened the cylinder looked at the ammo inside then closed it.  I proceeded to try to shoot and it locks again.  Then after a few attempts, I get fed up and eject the ammo.  I load it with different ammo and it starts shooting without any issues.  It really seems to me that something was not seated properly in the cylinder and was blocking the it from rotating.  The moment I removed the ammo, then suddenly the gun is operating smoothly.  If this was a locking issue, I would expect the larger Double Tap rounds to cause the same problems as the Hunter.  The overall length of both these cartridges are very similar.  The Buffalo Bores have an even larger COAL and shot without any problems.

Since I am 1 for 140 and the chances of needed the gun will be slim anyway, I will still pack it on my trip, but it would make me feel a bit less worried now if I had someone with more knowledge look it over and give the gun a clean bill of health.

BTW.. I have had many ammo issues with other guns, including S&W M&P, which is very much like a Glock in operation.  I was shooting Fiocchi 45ACP ammo in my S&W M&P 45 and I was getting constant stovepipes and FTE.  After this started happening I was pretty much sure my M&P needed to go back to S&W.  However, I started to notice this would happen only with the Fiocchi and I stopped shooting it.  Suddenly, the problem just disappeared.  I later found out that guns like Glocks, M&Ps, etc have an issue with the very hard primers used in some European ammos.  Regardless of the cause, a change of ammo remedied the issue and I never encountered this again.

I will be going to the 3-gun shoot at Parma, or at least I will try, I'm hoping somebody who is Revolver saavy can look it over.  I was also planning on visiting Sawtooth Tactical store.  I am not sure if Jeff is a gunsmith, but maybe if he is and if I stop by, maybe him or somebody from his shop can look over the gun to see if there is any noticeable issues.

[NoviceHunter]

I think you're probably right that it is the ammo.  But I have seen guns that would fail under one recoil impulse and not others, so I can't rule out the gun without seeing it.  Only you can.  If it's a physical blockage of some kind, as you think, you should be able to put the ammo into the gun and cycle it through all six rounds (without firing, somewhere safe, of course), and repro the problem.

Also, Ruger's do tend to have notoriously tight cylinder gaps.  Any obvious fouling/leading on the forcing cone or outward face of the cylinder?

By the way, my first ruger revolver had to go back to the factory.  Yes, it's free.  Yes, it's annoying.  It came back perfect.

[Evergreen]

There is some fouling around the cylinder and forcing cone, but it doesn't seem that it is anything out of the ordinary.  I did just clean the gun for the first time and the front of the cylinder does have some residue I couldn't take off with the brush.  However, most of my larger caliber revolvers seem to have this issue. 

I'm not saying it isn't the gun, but I hope it is not.  Anyhow, I think considering how many rounds I was able to put through it without a problem, I will feel comfortable enough bringing it with me on my trip.  Hopefully, I can show it to someone while in Boise who knows more about revolvers. If this was an issue with the cylinder gap, wouldn't shooting the Buffalo Bore rounds which are longer than the Corbon Hunter's have produced the same results?

After I get back from my trip, I would send it in for service if that is what it needs.   

[NoviceHunter]

If this was an issue with the cylinder gap, wouldn't shooting the Buffalo Bore rounds which are longer than the Corbon Hunter's have produced the same results?

No, that's not an OAL issue, it's mostly a dirty ammo or soft lead issue.

[Evergreen]

I recovered the two fired casings and the other rounds I loaded into my gun during the jam.  I'll bring them to Boise with me and I hope somebody knowledgeable can take a look at the gun and the casings and Corbon Hunter rounds I have.  Like you say, I should be able to reproduce it, so I will attempt to load the exact same casings and the rounds into my gun when I go to the Parma gun range next Sunday.  Maybe sooner, if I can find a safe area to shoot my gun.  That's a bit hard where I live now and they shut down the only little range we have here today.

[High Wall]

Does that piece of crud near the rim keep that particular cartridge from seating all the way into the cylinder?  It is likely that is your problem if it does.