Author Topic: Concealed Carry in Church? (Read 1153 times)

danno12345 · « **on:** August 01, 2011, 11:14:24 PM »

I was just reading the "Idaho State Parks Carry?" thread, and pv74's quote of the AG's site (shown below) got me to thinking.

I attend a church that is a private school during the week. Is it ok for me to carry concealed there on Sunday when it's not a school?

I actually sent the AG an email about this about a year ago, and basically he said his job is to advise legislators, not me.

Curious about what y'all think, not looking for legal advice and will not point any fingers.

Posted by pv74:

http://www.ag.idaho.gov/concealedWeapons/concealedWeapons_index.html#Are there places where I cannot carry a concealed weapon even with a permit

Are there places where I cannot carry a concealed weapon even with a permit?

Yes. You may not carry a concealed weapon in a courthouse, juvenile detention facility, adult correctional facility, prison, jail, public school or private school.

Federal law may prohibit you from carrying a weapon in places such as federal courthouses and airports.

If you have any doubt, you should contact the government entity prior to carrying a weapon onto its premises.

NoviceHunter · « **Reply #1 on:** August 02, 2011, 12:46:46 AM »

Talk to a lawyer for a real answer. IANAL, but here's my internet analysis:

Relevant statute:
http://www.legislature.idaho.gov/idstat/Title18/T18CH33SECT18-3302D.htm

I believe that 1a means that if there is *no* school activity going on at the time, it's ok. Note that the legal definition of a school seems to not include colleges/universities. Also note that a teacher grading papers on the weekend would probably count as "an activity sponsored by or through a school", or any similar off-hours activity by any employee, or probably even just kids shooting hoops.

Note that without a CCW, you'll need to pay attention to the stricter Federal law, which just says nope:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_School_Zones_Act_of_1990

If it's a school that lets other activities take place, I wouldn't think it's worth the hassle of all the ambiguities. If it's a church that rents/gives a room a few days a week, then it's probably fine.

tgibson · « **Reply #2 on:** August 02, 2011, 07:14:04 AM »

I guess my question is, "does it really matter?". I carry to church, to parent teacher conferences, band recitals, Christmas Programs, places that serve alchohol, etc etc. Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.
Adios
TG
Keep in mind This is all concealed not open
TG

fj40mojo · « **Reply #3 on:** August 02, 2011, 08:14:30 AM »

Quote from: tgibson on August 02, 2011, 07:14:04 AM

I guess my question is, "does it really matter?". I carry to church, to parent teacher conferences, band recitals, Christmas Programs, places that serve alchohol, etc etc. Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.
Adios
TG
Keep in mind This is all concealed not open
TG

Agreed, every flock needs a sheepdog.

parados · « **Reply #4 on:** August 02, 2011, 09:30:22 AM »

So correct me if I’m wrong but reading the Federal Code, it looks like it is OK for a CCW permit holder (of the state the school is located in) to carry concealed in a school?

Federal Law: Subparagraph (A) Does not apply to (B)(ii) …individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_School_Zones_Act_of_1990

tgibson · « **Reply #5 on:** August 02, 2011, 09:38:24 AM »

Quote from: parados on August 02, 2011, 09:30:22 AM

So correct me if I’m wrong but reading the Federal Code, it looks like it is OK for a CCW permit holder (of the state the school is located in) to carry concealed in a school?

Federal Law: Subparagraph (A) Does not apply to (B)(ii) …individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_School_Zones_Act_of_1990

Beats the heck out of me. I don't worry about the details too much.
Adios
TG

popsgunner · « **Reply #6 on:** August 02, 2011, 03:17:07 PM »

guys, thinking WAY too much on this, Idaho state law says, NO guns in schools. I agree with TG 110%, does it matter. Out of sight out of mind.
I carry in Calif, I carry at the post office, I don't take guns into courthouses. better to have it and not need it, blah, blah, blah.
Pops

NoviceHunter · « **Reply #7 on:** August 02, 2011, 04:03:54 PM »

Knowing the law and choosing whether to ignore it are two separate issues. The guy asked what the law was. Beyond that, it's a personal decision.

But this attitude of being willfully ignorant is just plain stupid.

popsgunner · « **Reply #8 on:** August 02, 2011, 09:09:54 PM »

Trust me when I say this there are those of us whom are FAR from any form of ignorant. If you are on this forum to kiss ass or get kudo's on all your descisions in life , your in the wrong place. Some of are here to tell it like it is. Period. name calling is very high school, grow the fuck up.
Pops

NoviceHunter · « **Reply #9 on:** August 03, 2011, 11:45:31 AM »

Quote from: popsgunner on August 02, 2011, 09:09:54 PM

Trust me when I say this there are those of us whom are FAR from any form of ignorant. If you are on this forum to kiss ass or get kudo's on all your descisions in life , your in the wrong place. Some of are here to tell it like it is. Period. name calling is very high school, grow the fuck up.
Pops

If you're far from ignorant, then answer the guy's question without being vague (i.e. prove it or "grow the fuck up".) Your post added nothing to the OP's question, and you fail at reading comprehension if you think I was "name calling".

"Idaho state law says, NO guns in schools." That's all we have to go on from you, and it's patently false, given the links above. After, both you and several others basically advocate that he carry anyway without knowing all the details of the law in question. Ignoring a stupid law is a perfectly valid piece of advice (but it's also not what he asked). Not knowing the details of said law and winging it is, indeed, well, not the smartest thing I've ever heard of.

And even if you know the ins and outs of the law in question (which you have not shed any light on), suggesting that the OP ignore that law without himself knowing the details is asking him to be ignorant on your say so. That just ain't cool. These laws are stupid and needlessly complex, and the collective knowledge here can probably ferret out all the loopholes for the guy. So let's do that. That was his question, after all.

NoviceHunter · « **Reply #10 on:** August 03, 2011, 12:02:27 PM »

Quote from: parados on August 02, 2011, 09:30:22 AM

So correct me if I’m wrong but reading the Federal Code, it looks like it is OK for a CCW permit holder (of the state the school is located in) to carry concealed in a school?

Federal Law: Subparagraph (A) Does not apply to (B)(ii) …individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_School_Zones_Act_of_1990

No, it's not. In my first post, I said that without a CCW you have to follow the federal law. With a CCW, you are "licensed" by the state and then subject to the state law *only*. But without, then you are subject to *both* the federal law and the state law, according to the feds. Now, with a CCW, by Idaho state law, there are some corner cases where you can carry, and some educational non-school corner cases where you can NOT. The issue of a combo building was the original question, and it's fuzzy enough that the LEGAL answer should be "no" or "talk to a lawyer". I'd imagine that the amount of time it's a school and/or it's tax status and/or who owns it all come into play on that one. Case law might even matter, which isn't written into the statutes. My personal read is that it's legal when it's not being a school.

(Yeah, yeah, some of you carry anyway, regardless. I'm not going to state my personal position on that issue on an open internet forum AND that wasn't the original question.)

Interesting question for a lawyer would be whether a hunting license qualifies as the "license" as specified in this Federal law; I would guess not, since a hunting license doesn't let you possess a firearm anywhere you wouldn't otherwise be allowed to do so (just lets you shoot some extra things.)

NoviceHunter · « **Reply #11 on:** August 03, 2011, 12:43:03 PM »

Quote

just plain stupid.

Quote from: NoviceHunter on August 03, 2011, 11:45:31 AM

you fail at reading comprehension

My wife tells me that I was indeed being out of line. I apologize. Though I'm not retracting the meat of, "I think you should understand before you ignore."

I won't comment on the irony of being called out as a name caller by someone who both name called and used profanity. Oops, I just did.

popsgunner · « **Reply #12 on:** August 03, 2011, 04:18:35 PM »

LOL, good stuff
Idaho code 18-33, as far as guns at school, go ahead and carry there and let someone know you are and quote whatever fed law you want, I can almost guaruntee it will be one of the last times you carry at all.
As far as the names.....sticks and stones..., lol
I don't do P.C.
Peace.
Pops

NoviceHunter · « **Reply #13 on:** August 03, 2011, 04:49:45 PM »

Quote from: popsgunner on August 03, 2011, 04:18:35 PM

Idaho code 18-33, as far as guns at school, go ahead and carry there and let someone know you are and quote whatever fed law you want, I can almost guaruntee it will be one of the last times you carry at all.

I linked 18-33 above . And I'm pretty sure I said "no", "talk to a lawyer", and "complex". No is certainly the simple answer. I'm not sure where I was unclear, but I never meant to say "carry at a school".

The crux of the OP's question really is, is his church always a school if it has classes during the week? I don't bloody know the answer to that, but 18-33 implies not.

Shade OGrey · « **Reply #14 on:** August 03, 2011, 04:57:54 PM »

For what it is worth my concealed carry class was held in an elementary school, two Elmore County deputies, five attendees, about thirty guns (25 or so brought by the sheriff deputies who conducted the class).

popsgunner · « **Reply #15 on:** August 03, 2011, 05:33:53 PM »

A church is a private business, their rules as to carry or not. No churches are state or federal.....right.
Why is this discussion even going on, carry your gun concealed, protect your life, why does on question this.....oh, oh, I know maybe thats why at church they call the people there "lambs" and a "Flock ".
IMHO, folks, time to man up, nut up and get into the real world, lots of crazies around and maybe just maybe one of us will be in the right place at the right time to stop one of the bad guys. Again just MHO.
Pops

NoviceHunter · « **Reply #16 on:** August 03, 2011, 05:41:16 PM »

Quote from: Shade OGrey on August 03, 2011, 04:57:54 PM

For what it is worth my concealed carry class was held in an elementary school, two Elmore County deputies, five attendees, about thirty guns (25 or so brought by the sheriff deputies who conducted the class).

Nice.

Quote

Why is this discussion even going on

Because the guy asked a question, and you keep answering a different one.

zona5101 · « **Reply #17 on:** August 04, 2011, 05:27:18 AM »

I think pops answered the question perfectly.
OP Question:
I attend a church that is a private school during the week. Is it ok for me to carry concealed there on Sunday when it's not a school?

Pops Answer: (restated)
If you carry to protect your loved ones or yourself, always be prepared. (discrete concealed carry). I believe that would apply to all places that are not using metal detectors.

OP asked for opinions "Curious about what y'all think, not looking for legal advice and will not point any fingers."
Which I believe several answered in the same way - it really doesn't matter.

NoviceHunter · « **Reply #18 on:** August 04, 2011, 09:23:27 AM »

The OP asked a question about whether it was allowed. He even emailed the AG. Do you suppose he was looking for the gun enthusiast rote answer of "better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6" and its equivalents from the AG? Ahh, to heck with it. I give up.

zona5101 · « **Reply #19 on:** August 04, 2011, 10:06:03 AM »

Dunno. "Curious about what y'all think, not looking for legal advice and will not point any fingers." seems pretty open ended allowing even rote replies to be valid.

J Mack · « **Reply #20 on:** August 04, 2011, 10:41:27 AM »

Quote from: danno12345 on August 01, 2011, 11:14:24 PM

Curious about what y'all think, not looking for legal advice and will not point any fingers.

Please do not confuse this for legal advice and if you are ticketed or arrested, you must admit that committed the infraction of your own freewill.

When I come to a four way stop and I can see for at least one mile in every direction I have done a maneuver called a rolling stop instead of a complete stop. I know I could be ticketed for this but I used common sense and drove on.

When I’m walking on a seldom traveled road and I need to get to the other side I look in both directions then I do a maneuver called J-walking. I know I could be ticketed for this but I used common sense and walked on.

When I am conducting my business whether it is in a school/church or where ever I may be and I’m carrying my firearm I do a maneuver called keeping my firearm concealed. I know I could be ticketed for this but I used common sense and moved on.

crj · « **Reply #21 on:** August 04, 2011, 11:37:18 AM »

I've wondered this myself Dan, as I know the school in which you speak...
I assumed that the .gov carry laws applied to public schools.

Not sure how the .gov could impose this on a private enterprise, school or not.

I believe they would, but not that they should.

Have to agree with Novice on this.....

It shall be unlawful and is a misdemeanor for any person to possess a firearm or other deadly or dangerous weapon while on the property of a school or in those portions of any building, stadium or other structure on school grounds which, at the time of the violation, were being used for an activity sponsored by or through a school in this state or while riding school provided transportation.
(b) The provisions of this section regarding the possession of a firearm or other deadly or dangerous weapon on school property shall also apply to students of schools while attending or participating in any school sponsored activity, program or event regardless of location.

The church isn't sponsored by the school, quite the opposite actually...

eddymunster · « **Reply #22 on:** August 04, 2011, 11:48:12 AM »

Maybe a better question to ask yourself is, "Does my right to defend my life from a deadly threat end at a bureaucrat's arbitrary line?"

agunforeachhand · « **Reply #23 on:** August 04, 2011, 09:43:02 PM »

Quote from: eddymunster on August 04, 2011, 11:48:12 AM

Maybe a better question to ask yourself is, "Does my right to defend my life from a deadly threat end at a bureaucrat's arbitrary line?"

eddymunster that was an awesome statement!!!

RGinIdaho · « **Reply #24 on:** August 04, 2011, 09:50:30 PM »

Quote from: eddymunster on August 04, 2011, 11:48:12 AM

Maybe a better question to ask yourself is, "Does my right to defend my life from a deadly threat end at a bureaucrat's arbitrary line?"

Depends on the trier of facts...

agunforeachhand · « **Reply #25 on:** August 04, 2011, 11:38:17 PM »

What good is the law if you are dead? I would rather deal with the law after the fact then be DEAD

RGinIdaho · « **Reply #26 on:** August 05, 2011, 08:04:40 AM »

Quote from: agunforeachhand on August 04, 2011, 11:38:17 PM

What good is the law if you are dead? I would rather deal with the law after the fact then be DEAD

I think the OP's primary concern is dealing with the law in the event that he is discovered carrying in a NPZ prior to a threat of grave bodily injury or death arriving. Once a threat presents itself, there are, in some states, legitimate legal defenses that recognize the need to break a lesser law to avoid bodily injury or death. Prior to that fatefull event(99.9% of the time) you will more than likely require some sort of SUCCESSFUL legal defense.

"Concealed means concealed," would that not somehow extend to posting in an open forum that you intend to carry irregardless of laws to the contrary

Play "stupid games win stupid prizes" comes to mind as well as TG's "if you expect to win, you have to know the rules of the game."

popsgunner · « **Reply #27 on:** August 05, 2011, 10:12:32 AM »

What you are saying is not untrue.
We all have our opinions.
The right, the god given right to protect yourself from danger goes well beyond ANY written law, guns are just the most expedient tool we have to date.
Again, IMHO, Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.
I don't care if you use your FU, a knife, a raquetball raquet, your car or whatever, I for one WILL NOT be a victim.
That really IS all I have to say about that.
POPS

danno12345 · « **Reply #28 on:** August 09, 2011, 11:49:39 AM »

Wow! Sorry for posting & disappearing, I got busy & forgot about this thread!

So, now to drag it up again after 4 days of inactivity...

Thanks for all the responses.

It is a fuzzy issue, and as was mentioned, I want to (try) and know what the law would be before I decide whether to ignore it or not.

CRJ, I thought the carry laws applied to public schools as well, but the AG link I posted at the beginning specifies private schools. As you pointed out, the building in question is a church first, and a private (?parochial?) school second.

And NoviceHunter boiled it down pretty well: Is my church always a school if it has classes during the week?

I suspect that anyone I ask, including a lawyer would not be able to give me a straight answer unless there's some existing case law dealing with it.

So then it comes to whether I want to risk the possible consequences if, as RG mentioned, it is discovered that I am carrying "prior to a threat of grave bodily injury or death arriving." I like the way you put that...

RG, does NPZ = No Pistol Zone??

Zona said, "seems pretty open ended allowing even rote replies to be valid." Exactly. I was looking for all opinions and I sure got some!

Again, thanks to everyone who chimed in. I appreciate the discussion.

Dan

RGinIdaho · « **Reply #29 on:** August 09, 2011, 08:58:13 PM »

Quote from: danno12345 on August 09, 2011, 11:49:39 AM

RG, does NPZ = No Pistol Zone??

Sheesh, I did type NPZ. That should have been NPE for Non-Permissive Environment.

danno12345 · « **Reply #30 on:** August 10, 2011, 03:12:26 PM »

Quote from: RGinIdaho on August 09, 2011, 08:58:13 PM

Sheesh, I did type NPZ. That should have been NPE for Non-Permissive Environment.

I would have had to google NPE too... I got the idea though.

Dan

Farlo · « **Reply #31 on:** August 12, 2011, 09:24:33 PM »

Quote from: RGinIdaho on August 04, 2011, 09:50:30 PM

Depends on the trier of facts...

No, it depends upon who or what grants the right to self defense. Is it a law of nature, divinely granted (these two being arguably the same), or assigned by a governing body of humans?

Kcboats · « **Reply #32 on:** August 18, 2011, 09:56:22 PM »

Gotta go with Pops here, way to much crap going on in this world to take a chance. I go to church, believe in God...but always had a problem with the "turn the other cheek"...didnt God order David to wipe out an entire culture? Also believe there have been a lot of shooting in schools and and churches we have all read about lately...I sure would have liked one responsible adult carrying a weapon on Columbine that day...maybe a lot of kids could have gone home that day. Remember the Law is always going to be negative to you...your not a criminal so you dont have rights.

I say carry and PRAY that you never, ever, ever have to use it there. But if you do have to use it...well, I rather have my wife kids go home in my car than a body bag.

fj40mojo · « **Reply #33 on:** August 19, 2011, 01:38:17 PM »

Quote from: Kcboats on August 18, 2011, 09:56:22 PM

Gotta go with Pops here, way to much crap going on in this world to take a chance. I go to church, believe in God...but always had a problem with the "turn the other cheek"...didnt God order David to wipe out an entire culture? Also believe there have been a lot of shooting in schools and and churches we have all read about lately...I sure would have liked one responsible adult carrying a weapon on Columbine that day...maybe a lot of kids could have gone home that day. Remember the Law is always going to be negative to you...your not a criminal so you dont have rights. I say carry and PRAY that you never, ever, ever have to use it there. But if you do have to use it...well, I rather have my wife kids go home in my car than a body bag.

From Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turning_the_other_cheek

Quote

A literal interpretation of the passages, in which the command refers specifically to a manual strike against the side of a person's face, can be supported by reference to historical and other factors.[2] At the time of Jesus, striking someone deemed to be of a lower class with the back of the hand was used to assert authority and dominance.[3] If the persecuted person "turned the other cheek," the discipliner was faced with a dilemma. The left hand was used for unclean purposes, so a back-hand strike on the opposite cheek would not be performed.[4] The other alternative would be a slap with the open hand as a challenge or to punch the person, but this was seen as a statement of equality. Thus, by turning the other cheek the persecuted was in effect demanding equality.

I subscribe to the Sam Colt method of demanding equality. Times have changed.

Evergreen · « **Reply #34 on:** October 18, 2011, 10:02:36 AM »

I have always packed to synagogue and even some churches that I have visited in the past. In Oregon, I know that is perfectly legal. I'm a hoping that this is also legal in Idaho. Idaho's gun laws I have to say confuse me a bit. Like, in Oregon, I could pack in the bar area while having a beer, but I am told in Idaho you can only sit in the bar area if you are not drinking. Then other people tell me you can drink in the bar area while carrying, but you cannot get intoxicated (which is similiar to Oregon's law). I guess I don't quite know what to believe. I remember in Montana it was illegal to carry a gun in most of the restaurants, as they don't allow carrying where alcohol is served. Stupid law for a supposedly very free state.

In Oregon you can also carry in all schools, except colleges, as long as you have a CHL. Are the laws any different in Idaho? I would like to get an answer to this, as I never know where I may end up being while carrying. I'm sad to know that I cannot carry on BSU. I was planning on checking out the campus for the heck of it, but never like leaving my gun in the car. In Oregon the worst penalty for carrying on college campuses was being banned from the campus. Would there be similar treatment in Idaho or do you risk prison time/fines/loss of 2A rights if you try carrying on BSU?

NoviceHunter · « **Reply #35 on:** October 18, 2011, 10:18:55 AM »

Before a bunch of people jump in with the usual, "who cares what the law is; it's your butt, carry anyway!", just in case you wanted that decision to be an informed one:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.handgunlaw.us%2Fstates%2Fidaho.pdf&rct=j&q=handgunlaw.us%20idaho&ei=6KWdTs6QGYbfsQLW7YiLCg&usg=AFQjCNFjBPrlILSyorfBaUVupxLL6efH_A&cad=rja

... and it's the intoxicated rule here in Idaho, I believe. Used to be the other.

tgibson · « **Reply #36 on:** October 18, 2011, 11:08:08 PM »

Quote from: NoviceHunter on October 18, 2011, 10:18:55 AM

Before a bunch of people jump in with the usual, "who cares what the law is; it's your butt, carry anyway!", just in case you wanted that decision to be an informed one:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.handgunlaw.us%2Fstates%2Fidaho.pdf&rct=j&q=handgunlaw.us%20idaho&ei=6KWdTs6QGYbfsQLW7YiLCg&usg=AFQjCNFjBPrlILSyorfBaUVupxLL6efH_A&cad=rja

Why start now?

Adios,
TG

popsgunner · « **Reply #37 on:** October 19, 2011, 09:01:55 AM »

so.... I'll be nice...maybe......
No carry at schools or BSU, thats the law for now, any private business has the right to toss you IF they know you have a gun and they don't like it,
we go by common sense for the bars, you drink, you don't carry. Thought we talked about this common sense thing before.
I still agree with TGibson. look into the laws of probability all you fairly educated types, so many people in a certain area , given a certain possibility for certain crimes and the opportunity to commit them, then add the amount of times you carry and the geographic areas of carry divided by the times that crimes are commited...................hold on thats math, too old for that, just carry concealed when you THINK its ok too. freedom of choice as well as 2A. love it.
pops

Author Topic: Concealed Carry in Church? (Read 1153 times)

crj