Topic: Concealed Carry in Church?

[danno12345]

I was just reading the "Idaho State Parks Carry?" thread, and pv74's quote of the AG's site (shown below) got me to thinking.

I attend a church that is a private school during the week.  Is it ok for me to carry concealed there on Sunday when it's not a school?

I actually sent the AG an email about this about a year ago, and basically he said his job is to advise legislators, not me. 

Curious about what y'all think, not looking for legal advice and will not point any fingers.



Posted by pv74:

http://www.ag.idaho.gov/concealedWeapons/concealedWeapons_index.html#Are there places where I cannot carry a concealed weapon even with a permit

Are there places where I cannot carry a concealed weapon even with a permit?

Yes. You may not carry a concealed weapon in a courthouse, juvenile detention facility, adult correctional facility, prison, jail, public school or private school.


Federal law may prohibit you from carrying a weapon in places such as federal courthouses and airports.

If you have any doubt, you should contact the government entity prior to carrying a weapon onto its premises.

[NoviceHunter]

Talk to a lawyer for a real answer.  IANAL, but here's my internet analysis:

Relevant statute:
http://www.legislature.idaho.gov/idstat/Title18/T18CH33SECT18-3302D.htm

I believe that 1a means that if there is *no* school activity going on at the time, it's ok.  Note that the legal definition of a school seems to not include colleges/universities.  Also note that a teacher grading papers on the weekend would probably count as "an activity sponsored by or through a school", or any similar off-hours activity by any employee, or probably even just kids shooting hoops.

Note that without a CCW, you'll need to pay attention to the stricter Federal law, which just says nope:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_School_Zones_Act_of_1990

If it's a school that lets other activities take place, I wouldn't think it's worth the hassle of all the ambiguities.  If it's a church that rents/gives a room a few days a week, then it's probably fine.

[tgibson]

I guess my question is, "does it really matter?". I carry to church, to parent teacher conferences, band recitals, Christmas Programs, places that serve alchohol, etc etc. Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.
Adios
TG
Keep in mind This is all concealed not open
TG

[fj40mojo]

I guess my question is, "does it really matter?". I carry to church, to parent teacher conferences, band recitals, Christmas Programs, places that serve alchohol, etc etc. Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.
Adios
TG
Keep in mind This is all concealed not open
TG

Agreed, every flock needs a sheepdog.

[parados]

So correct me if I’m wrong but reading the Federal Code, it looks like it is OK for a CCW permit holder (of the state the school is located in) to carry concealed in a school? 

Federal Law:  Subparagraph (A) Does not apply to (B)(ii) …individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_School_Zones_Act_of_1990

[tgibson]

So correct me if I’m wrong but reading the Federal Code, it looks like it is OK for a CCW permit holder (of the state the school is located in) to carry concealed in a school? 

Federal Law:  Subparagraph (A) Does not apply to (B)(ii) …individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_School_Zones_Act_of_1990

Beats the heck out of me. I don't worry about the details too much.
Adios
TG

[popsgunner]

guys, thinking WAY too much on this, Idaho state law says, NO guns in schools. I agree with TG 110%, does it matter. Out of sight out of mind.
I carry in Calif, I carry at the post office, I don't take guns into courthouses. better to have it and not need it, blah, blah, blah.
Pops

[NoviceHunter]

Knowing the law and choosing whether to ignore it are two separate issues.  The guy asked what the law was.  Beyond that, it's a personal decision.

But this attitude of being willfully ignorant is just plain stupid.

[popsgunner]

Trust me when I say this there are those of us whom are FAR from any form of ignorant. If you are on this forum to kiss ass or get kudo's on all your descisions in life , your in the wrong place. Some of are here to tell it like it is. Period. name calling is very high school, grow the fuck up.
Pops

[NoviceHunter]

Trust me when I say this there are those of us whom are FAR from any form of ignorant. If you are on this forum to kiss ass or get kudo's on all your descisions in life , your in the wrong place. Some of are here to tell it like it is. Period. name calling is very high school, grow the fuck up.
Pops

If you're far from ignorant, then answer the guy's question without being vague (i.e. prove it or "grow the fuck up".)  Your post added nothing to the OP's question, and you fail at reading comprehension if you think I was "name calling".

"Idaho state law says, NO guns in schools."  That's all we have to go on from you, and it's patently false, given the links above.  After, both you and several others basically advocate that he carry anyway without knowing all the details of the law in question.  Ignoring a stupid law is a perfectly valid piece of advice (but it's also not what he asked).  Not knowing the details of said law and winging it is, indeed, well, not the smartest thing I've ever heard of.

And even if you know the ins and outs of the law in question (which you have not shed any light on), suggesting that the OP ignore that law without himself knowing the details is asking him to be ignorant on your say so.  That just ain't cool.  These laws are stupid and needlessly complex, and the collective knowledge here can probably ferret out all the loopholes for the guy.  So let's do that.  That was his question, after all.

[NoviceHunter]

So correct me if I’m wrong but reading the Federal Code, it looks like it is OK for a CCW permit holder (of the state the school is located in) to carry concealed in a school?  

Federal Law:  Subparagraph (A) Does not apply to (B)(ii) …individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_School_Zones_Act_of_1990

No, it's not.  In my first post, I said that without a CCW you have to follow the federal law.  With a CCW, you are "licensed" by the state and then subject to the state law *only*.  But without, then you are subject to *both* the federal law and the state law, according to the feds.  Now, with a CCW, by Idaho state law, there are some corner cases where you can carry, and some educational non-school corner cases where you can NOT.  The issue of a combo building was the original question, and it's fuzzy enough that the LEGAL answer should be "no" or "talk to a lawyer".  I'd imagine that the amount of time it's a school and/or it's tax status and/or who owns it all come into play on that one.  Case law might even matter, which isn't written into the statutes.  My personal read is that it's legal when it's not being a school.

(Yeah, yeah, some of you carry anyway, regardless.  I'm not going to state my personal position on that issue on an open internet forum AND that wasn't the original question.)

Interesting question for a lawyer would be whether a hunting license qualifies as the "license" as specified in this Federal law; I would guess not, since a hunting license doesn't let you possess a firearm anywhere you wouldn't otherwise be allowed to do so (just lets you shoot some extra things.)

[NoviceHunter]

just plain stupid.

you fail at reading comprehension

My wife tells me that I was indeed being out of line.  I apologize.  Though I'm not retracting the meat of, "I think you should understand before you ignore."

I won't comment on the irony of being called out as a name caller by someone who both name called and used profanity.  Oops, I just did.  

[popsgunner]

LOL, good stuff
Idaho code 18-33, as far as guns at school, go ahead and carry there and let someone know you are and quote whatever fed law you want, I can almost guaruntee it will be one of the last times you carry at all.
As far as the names.....sticks and stones..., lol
I don't do P.C.
Peace.
Pops

[NoviceHunter]

Idaho code 18-33, as far as guns at school, go ahead and carry there and let someone know you are and quote whatever fed law you want, I can almost guaruntee it will be one of the last times you carry at all.

I linked 18-33 above . And I'm pretty sure I said "no", "talk to a lawyer", and "complex".  No is certainly the simple answer.  I'm not sure where I was unclear, but I never meant to say "carry at a school".

The crux of the OP's question really is, is his church always a school if it has classes during the week?  I don't bloody know the answer to that, but 18-33 implies not.

[Shade OGrey]

For what it is worth my concealed carry class was held in an elementary school, two Elmore County deputies, five attendees, about thirty guns (25 or so brought by the sheriff deputies who conducted the class).

[popsgunner]

A church is a private business, their rules as to carry or not. No churches are state or federal.....right.
Why is this discussion even going on, carry your gun concealed, protect your life, why does on question this.....oh, oh, I know maybe thats why at church they call the people there "lambs" and a "Flock ".
IMHO, folks, time to man up, nut up and get into the real world, lots of crazies around and maybe just maybe one of us will be in the right place at the right time to stop one of the bad guys. Again just MHO.
Pops

[NoviceHunter]

For what it is worth my concealed carry class was held in an elementary school, two Elmore County deputies, five attendees, about thirty guns (25 or so brought by the sheriff deputies who conducted the class).

Nice.

Why is this discussion even going on

Because the guy asked a question, and you keep answering a different one.

[zona5101]

I think pops answered the question perfectly.
OP Question:
I attend a church that is a private school during the week.  Is it ok for me to carry concealed there on Sunday when it's not a school?

Pops Answer: (restated)
If you carry to protect your loved ones or yourself, always be prepared. (discrete concealed carry). I believe that would apply to all places that are not using metal detectors.

OP asked for opinions "Curious about what y'all think, not looking for legal advice and will not point any fingers."
Which I believe several answered in the same way - it really doesn't matter.

[NoviceHunter]

The OP asked a question about whether it was allowed.  He even emailed the AG.  Do you suppose he was looking for the gun enthusiast rote answer of "better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6" and its equivalents from the AG?  Ahh, to heck with it.  I give up.

[zona5101]

Dunno.  "Curious about what y'all think, not looking for legal advice and will not point any fingers." seems pretty open ended allowing even rote replies to be valid.

[J Mack]

Curious about what y'all think, not looking for legal advice and will not point any fingers.

Please do not confuse this for legal advice and if you are ticketed or arrested, you must admit that committed the infraction of your own freewill.

When I come to a four way stop and I can see for at least one mile in every direction I have done a maneuver called a rolling stop instead of a complete stop. I know I could be ticketed for this but I used common sense and drove on.

When I’m walking on a seldom traveled road and I need to get to the other side I look in both directions then I do a maneuver called J-walking. I know I could be ticketed for this but I used common sense and walked on. 

When I am conducting my business whether it is in a school/church or where ever I may be and I’m carrying my firearm I do a maneuver called keeping my firearm concealed.  I know I could be ticketed for this but I used common sense and moved on.   

[crj]

I've wondered this myself Dan, as I know the school in which you speak...
I assumed that the .gov carry laws applied to public schools.

Not sure how the .gov could impose this on a private enterprise, school or not.  

I believe they would, but not that they should.  

Have to agree with Novice on this.....

It shall be unlawful and is a misdemeanor for any person to possess a firearm or other deadly or dangerous weapon while on the property of a school or in those portions of any building, stadium or other structure on school grounds which, at the time of the violation, were being used for an activity sponsored by or through a school in this state or while riding school provided transportation.
(b)  The provisions of this section regarding the possession of a firearm or other deadly or dangerous weapon on school property shall also apply to students of schools while attending or participating in any school sponsored activity, program or event regardless of location.


The church isn't sponsored by the school, quite the opposite actually...

[eddymunster]

Maybe a better question to ask yourself is, "Does my right to defend my life from a deadly threat end at a bureaucrat's arbitrary line?"

[agunforeachhand]

Maybe a better question to ask yourself is, "Does my right to defend my life from a deadly threat end at a bureaucrat's arbitrary line?"

eddymunster that was an awesome statement!!!

[RGinIdaho]

Maybe a better question to ask yourself is, "Does my right to defend my life from a deadly threat end at a bureaucrat's arbitrary line?"

Depends on the trier of facts...