Author Topic: 1911 double stack conversion? (Read 1385 times)

Jaggy13 · « **on:** May 24, 2011, 05:38:00 PM »

found this http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=23323/avs%7CManufacturer_1=CASPIAN/Product/1911_AUTO_HIGH_CAPACITY_RECEIVER_KIT

and haven't really found anything about it yet.
Considering giving it a try on my 9mm 1911.

Do you guys think it will accept my non ramped barrel?
(My assumption is yes)
Anyone have some history with it?
Or should I just stay away?

No-One · « **Reply #1 on:** May 24, 2011, 05:56:04 PM »

That particular frame is a non-ramped frame .

Jaggy13 · « **Reply #2 on:** May 24, 2011, 06:02:49 PM »

how can you tell?
not going to be worth it over a full STI build if I can't use the barrel and slide I already have.

No-One · « **Reply #3 on:** May 24, 2011, 06:13:36 PM »

Click on the item and then read the Q&A .

carharttfarmer · « **Reply #4 on:** May 24, 2011, 06:57:42 PM »

why not just get a sti 2011 non ramped frame and use it

Jaggy13 · « **Reply #5 on:** May 24, 2011, 11:45:28 PM »

Thanks Neff, I see that link now.

Farmer,
The idea was to use my current top end, if thats all I had to buy, I thought I could get a season or 2 out of my top end on this frame and my single stack frame. (Double stack for those 3 gun matches and maybe some limited USPSA)

If its not ramped, then I will probably end up just getting a complete double stack or build one.

I just stumbled on it in the 1911 brownells catalog and thought I would look into it.

birddog1989 · « **Reply #6 on:** May 25, 2011, 01:35:35 AM »

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=12454/sku=791-250-001/Product/1911_AUTO_2011_MODULAR_FRAME

I think this is the STI frame carhartfarmer was talking about. It's non-ramped and basically the same thing as the Caspian frame but a few bucks cheaper. Mags cost about the same. All your parts should work but might need to be fitted. I just ordered one for a 10mm, of course the day after I placed my order they showed out of stock.

carharttfarmer · « **Reply #7 on:** May 25, 2011, 02:19:26 PM »

Quote from: birddog1989 on May 25, 2011, 01:35:35 AM

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=12454/sku=791-250-001/Product/1911_AUTO_2011_MODULAR_FRAME

I think this is the STI frame carhartfarmer was talking about. It's non-ramped and basically the same thing as the Caspian frame but a few bucks cheaper. Mags cost about the same. All your parts should work but might need to be fitted. I just ordered one for a 10mm, of course the day after I placed my order they showed out of stock.

yup thats what im talking about
o and dealer pricing would make it $350

Jaggy13 · « **Reply #8 on:** May 25, 2011, 04:13:49 PM »

ok, now I'm really confused! Quote from the STI info "Non-Ramp - with standard, non-caliber-specific feed ramp or Ramped - pre-machined to accept the Nowlin/Wilson-style ramped barrels."

So... If non-ramped means ramped frame, then does that mean the Caspian is what I need?

All things being equal, which platform would be better? You guys know better than I do what I really want

carharttfarmer · « **Reply #9 on:** May 25, 2011, 06:57:06 PM »

they sell it both ways ramped and nonramped just look at the product description it says one or the other

birddog1989 · « **Reply #10 on:** May 25, 2011, 07:07:28 PM »

They are just describing both types of frames. The ramped frame is part # 791-250-100 and is used for the Wilson/Nowlin barrels. The non-ramped frame is part # 791-250-001 and that's the one you want unless you decide to go with the Caspian. If you can get some one on here to hook you up with the dealer price you would save about $130!

"All things being equal, which platform would be better? You guys know better than I do what I really want

"
LOL!

I know the feeling dude, you decide to build something and then you start looking and there is all this stuff to decide on and you have to figure out who makes good stuff and who makes crap.

Both companies make really good stuff. I went with STI because I have hands on experience with them and not the Caspian double stack. I also like that STI has the modular frame so if you screw up while tweaking it they are easy and cheaper to replace. If you don't want nylon they make a grip in aluminum too but they are about $350 on their own. If I'm not mistaken I think STI based guns are still the most popular double-stack 1911 style guns used in competition.

Jaggy13 · « **Reply #11 on:** May 25, 2011, 10:26:13 PM »

Thanks Birddog,
I've just seen it too many times in other things, try to save a buck and end up spending twice as much in the long run.
(Reloading setup comes to mind)

I'm not in a big rush, but I do need to get something better going for 3 gun/multi gun.
My single stack just doesn't help on those spinners!

I may just take a deep breath, step back and assess a full build.
I finally feel like I have the 1911 platform all figured out... 2011 not so much

birddog1989 · « **Reply #12 on:** May 26, 2011, 11:11:11 PM »

Quote from: Jaggy13 on May 25, 2011, 10:26:13 PM

I'm not in a big rush, but I do need to get something better going for 3 gun/multi gun.
My single stack just doesn't help on those spinners!

Stop missing

Fundamentally the 1911 and the 2011 are pretty much the same. Grip and mags are different but I wouldn't worry about it to much.

I think your best bet would be to go on some of the 1911 forums and read up on what people using each system have to say.

SNAFU · « **Reply #13 on:** May 26, 2011, 11:59:29 PM »

Quote from: carharttfarmer on May 24, 2011, 06:57:42 PM

why not just get a sti 2011 non ramped frame and use it

that or just buy a Para Ord 14-45 1911...

Jaggy13 · « **Reply #14 on:** May 27, 2011, 12:12:32 AM »

trying to keep it 9mm, but the para 18-9 is something I have looked at, also looked pretty seriously at a glock 34.
There's also a member on here that has tried to get me to run a Tanfolio...

SNAFU · « **Reply #15 on:** May 27, 2011, 12:15:22 AM »

Quote from: Jaggy13 on May 27, 2011, 12:12:32 AM

trying to keep it 9mm, but the para 18-9 is something I have looked at, also looked pretty seriously at a glock 34.
There's also a member on here that has tried to get me to run a Tanfolio...

If you are considering Glock, also have a look at Springfield XDm's think they use a 19 round 9mm mag.

Way better trigger than glock to.

Jaggy13 · « **Reply #16 on:** May 27, 2011, 08:37:55 AM »

Sorry, SNAFU, feel the exact opposite.
Can't stand the XD platform. Thought I would given the 45 grip angle.
also the M&P was a passing thought, like the glock better than the other composites.

ekuo · « **Reply #17 on:** May 27, 2011, 09:04:59 AM »

Jaggy,
Is it your ultimate goal to have a hi-cap 9mm for Limited and 3-Gun, or are you just wanting an interim gun that gets you by before finally biting the bullet on a 2011 Eagle, Edge, or Tactical 5?

The reason I ask is because I kind of went down this path in 2010. I was a Single Stack guy up until then, but I wanted a hi-cap for 3-Gun (probably because of the same reasons you do). So I got a G35 and shot it for 6 months in the annual Glocks Match, Limited and 3-Gun and had a blast. But ultimately I knew I wanted a STI 2011.

So I sold some guns that were just collecting dust in the back of the safe, haunted the online forums, then pounced when one showed up. BE and USPSA's member website are good places to look, but you have to move fast.

Is it worth getting a G34 or M&P in the interim period? Depends. For me, I would get a complete 2nd gun before converting my RIA into a hi-cap. Factor in the cost of the Caspian frame kit, mags, and gunsmithing costs to fit everything, and you're close to or over the price of a G34 (or a used one already set up for Limited from BE). Besides, I'm of the opinion that slides and frames on guns should be like geese: They mate for life and are monogamous. No wife-swapping parties going on inside my safe!

The G34 or M&P can be shot in Production, Limited, or L-10 -and- SSP and ESP, and I find it fun to mix it up every now and then. Of the two I'd say get the G34 so you can shoot in the annual Glocks Only match then put it back into your BOB for the rest of the year, but the M&Ps are good guns and you may find the grip angle and bore height easier to get used to.

But I think I would be getting that 550 first! New guns are fun, but the press is the thing that sustains the shootin'... Just sayin!

birddog1989 · « **Reply #18 on:** May 27, 2011, 09:52:08 AM »

Good points all around ekuo. I think being able to feed the best is job one. As far as getting something else in the interim, I think that is a good idea also. Wear that gun out while you save for a full blown build or what ever you decide to go with my vote would be for the XD or M&P. That's me though and has to do with my muscle memory, or lack there of.

I had a G34 for awhile and liked it but I was messed up when I would go back to my 1911.

Jaggy13 · « **Reply #19 on:** May 27, 2011, 11:33:47 AM »

Thanks Evans,
You told me what I have been telling myself in the back of my head.
I like the trigger on the glock, and the idea of having an extra pistol around to keep handy (BOB idea). Thats what my current glock is actually doing. (G27)

550 is supposed to get here today

I've been trying not to jinx it.

I can have the frame and mags, fitting and duracoat for about the same as a G34.

You're right though, eventually I want a 2011.

ekuo · « **Reply #20 on:** May 27, 2011, 11:56:57 AM »

Congrats on the 550! Good press. You won't be disappointed.

The G34 is a pretty good platform, and god knows there are enough after-market accessories. You can improve on the Glock trigger with minimal investment, or spend a couple hundred, depending on your criteria and wallet. For me, I did the 25 cent trigger job, replaced the OEM 4.5 lb connector with a 3.5 lb one from Lone Wolf, and swapped out the 5 lb trigger spring for a 6 lb spring. Its not as nice as a Vanek replacement trigger, but costs about a tenth of the price of a Vanek. I also ditched the Glock OEM sights for a Warren-Sevigney front/rear, and stuck on some grip tape after shooting my first match. Go with a DP ICE magwell for Limited and 3-gun, or plain jane for IDPA and Production. 3 or 4 G17 mags with Arredondo +5 extensions, and you are good to go. I think I saw a used one on BE with all the Limited Div trimmings for a decent price not too long ago. Don't mess with a lighter firing pin spring unless you switch to Federal primers...

Let the 2011 be your long term goal -either wait for a good deal on a used one or start buying parts for a custom build as you come up with the cash. There are a few gun mechanics in this area that can do the build for you if you show up with a box o' parts. Speaking of which, anybody have a line on a 2011 6" slide or frame?

Jaggy13 · « **Reply #21 on:** May 27, 2011, 12:36:34 PM »

on the glock, what devisions can I not run a grip force adapter? will it limit any uspsa or idpa?

the doublestack 1911 cocerns I have are basicly coming down to what magazine I want to be "married" to. Sti/svi seems to get the majority of support.
other cocern is ramped/non ramped barrel. in 9mm is it really a concern? not saying I want to push 9mm major, but I don't know I wont either...

Thats really what has me on the fence.

ekuo · « **Reply #22 on:** May 27, 2011, 02:11:12 PM »

What is a Grip Force Adapter??? Got a link? Appendix D of your rule book has the list of prohibited mods for each division. Ditto for IDPA. If you don't have a rulebook I can look it up, but I need to know what a GFA is.

Good concern with the mags. My plan from here on out is to stay with the STI 2011 frames for all my double stack needs. Not sure how compatible STI mags are with Para or Caspian frames. But if your intended doublestack is going to be a STI, no need to worry. STI makes enough variants that you ought to be able to live within their available options (short/long dust cover, wide/standard frame, 5"/6"...).

In the STI frames, the ramped barrels are what they call the Wilson-Nowlin cut. I can't say for certain, but I think all of STI's double stacks in 9mm and .40 are ramped barrels. But looking on Brownell's Catalog #7, you can get ramped or non-ramped 2011 frames depending on what kind of after-market bbl you want (ie Kart, Scheumann...). Or if you buy a used Eagle or Edge, you'd probably get a frame which accepts Wilson-Nowlin ramped barrels. Fortunately if you ever wear out your bbl you can get replacement W-N ramped-bbls. So it ends up being a non-factor if you know what I mean -unless you happen to already have a non-ramped bbl that you want to use.

No need to worry about 9mm major unless you plan on adding a comp and dot sight and playing in Open Div. 9mm in Limited, L-10, and SS must be scored minor irregardless of the velocity (.400" is the min caliber for Major in those divisions).

No-One · « **Reply #23 on:** May 27, 2011, 04:04:43 PM »

STI/SV , Caspian and Para Ordnance all use proprietary magazines . Like Evan said , haunt BE.com and the USPSA classifieds and deals can be had but you gotta check often and pull the trigger on buying it quickly . 9MM's in the STI and Para frames suffer from the fact that the magazines are just narrowed versions of a .45 magazine so the OAL is a bit long for 9MM's . I am not sure if the Caspian mags are the same way but I do know that the Caspian mags hold fewer rounds than the STI or the Para magazines . I shoot a Para in .40 but the chamber has been modified so that I can load to .45 length which makes my pistol feed more reliably . It feeds most factory length stuff pretty well but my handloads are all loaded long for 100% reliability .

Jaggy13 · « **Reply #24 on:** May 27, 2011, 06:08:10 PM »

http://shop.gripforceproducts.com/GEN-123-ADAPTER-KIT-BLACK-64131.htm Changes the grip angle to be more like a 1911.
Doubt it will work in IDPA SSP or USPSA Production.

As No-one said, the mags are not really interchangeable.
So I'm a little hesitant to stray from STI as of now.

ekuo · « **Reply #25 on:** May 27, 2011, 06:57:00 PM »

Ah OK. Yeah, I don't think a GFA would be allowed in Production. Under Prohibit Modifications for grips is says no to any addition or removal of material which changes the factory profile or adds function such as a beavertail or thumb rest. But I didn't see anything in the rules that would prohibit it in Limited or L-10.

For IDPA's SSP, I think this would fall under the Excluded Modifications of an externally visible modification... but I think it'd be OK for ESP.

Which is too bad because I sometimes get bit by the slide of a Glock due to high grip/thumbs forward. Curiously enough, I didn't get dinged at the Glock's Match, and my gun had 300 or so chances that day to do that to me...

Something else to put into the blender: Do you want a gun that you can shoot in IDPA as well as USPSA, 3-Gun, and Steel Challenge? IDPA is the probably the biggest limiting factor, so if you do you might consider getting the Eagle / short dust cover 2011 frame and a bushing barrel. if you need/want more weight out front, you can always get a tungsten guide rod. I'm keeping that option open, but haven't felt the need to do it yet.

luvmy45 · « **Reply #26 on:** May 27, 2011, 07:14:49 PM »

I see no problem with use with IDPA...

Looks similar to other slip on glock grip angle adapters (Like those sold my MGM Targets) and what not...

PERMITTED Modifications (Inclusive list):
1. Sights may be changed to another conventional notch and
post type (see “sights” in glossary for further information).
2. Grips may be changed to another style or material that is
similar to factory configuration (no weighted grips; see
“weighted grips” in glossary for further details).
3. A slip-on grip sock and/or skateboard tape may be used.

ekuo · « **Reply #27 on:** May 27, 2011, 07:27:50 PM »

I hear what you're saying, and that would be cool if it is allowed for SSP, but what about the externally visible part?

Jaggy13 · « **Reply #28 on:** May 27, 2011, 08:29:11 PM »

there's no need for more than 10 rounds in IDPA so my single stack will still fill that bill, that being said, I really think I need to stick with one platform for a while.
I've been shooting .22 for steel challenge and I think its starting to hinder my other shooting. I find myself anticipating recoil more and hesitating after my sights have already landed back on target.

So... Yes? I think whatever I land on will need to be the one gun I shoot at least for a while. (could be just a phase I'm going through, but I shouldn't be flinching when shooting my pistol. its as buttery smooth as possible without it being a .22)

I really like the pistol Travis built. If I can keep it legal for all of these shooting sports without giving very much up, then I think that would be optimal.

Keep in mind I am just trying to learn what I really want, and what the different options are out there, I did get solicited by a guy on BE that has a caspian kit and magazine. Thats the only urgency... It's a great deal and I think it would be better quality then a widebody Rock Island. (What I was thinking about buying)

Thanks for all the great advice and education. I really do appreciate it!

egress81 · « **Reply #29 on:** May 28, 2011, 12:15:53 AM »

Keep us updated with what you decide to do, as I am looking at a double stack 1911/2011 pistol in .40 and there is some good info in here.

birddog1989 · « **Reply #30 on:** May 28, 2011, 06:42:02 AM »

Quote from: No-One on May 27, 2011, 04:04:43 PM

9MM's in the STI and Para frames suffer from the fact that the magazines are just narrowed versions of a .45 magazine so the OAL is a bit long for 9MM's .

http://shootersconnectionstore.com/Arredondo-9mm-Spacer-Follower-P118.aspx

This should help out with that problem