Topic: 45 ACP Slow Speeds

[RevolverLove]

I have tried to research this and can't find where this has specifically has been addressed so forgive me if it's redundant.

I'm reloading .45 ACP

Using 230 gr Plated Power Bond Bullets (Local Company) 231 powder @5.3 gr, C.O.L. 1.2030 I'm getting avg 720 FPS. Winchester website says I should get 832 using the  230gr Lead numbers If I used the 230Gr Jacketed I should get 834.

So why am I so slow?? I'm shooting a Baby Desert Eagle with a 4 in Barrel.

Tried Bullseye powder because I use that for 9mm and it's worse. I'm still over 100 FPS slow.

Same for my 38 Special+P. Again 4inch barrel.

My 9mm from a Ruger P95 4 in. is spot on using Bullseye.
So what factors afftect speed.  I know barrel length does but on the Allient website they used a 4.4 in barrel and I'm using 4

Does crimp have anything to do with it. I'm using Lee equipment and the Factory crimp die. Looks to be like an .002 crimp.

I'm trying to make power factor for IDPA and I want a good cushion and not just  over the line.

Thanks in advance for some advice.

[luvmy45]

Check the specs of the published test load... probably a 5" barrell, vs a 4" there part of your difference.

Your using lead specs with a plated bullet, there's part of the difference as well.

Crimp also makes a difference.

I shoot a lot of .45 in IDPA my all time favorite load is around 4.5gr of Clays with 230gr plated...  is very soft shooting. Because Clays doesn't play will in 9 and 40 I switch to Titegroup, which is still nice to shoot. 4.5 gr over 230gr is right around 720 with is PF for IDPA

See http://www.ccidpa.org/idpa-power.html for PF stuff, good resource.

Of course, temp also makes a difference, so there part of the equation as well. And so does your chrono... not all chrono's are the same. 

[ekuo]

I agree.  The primary culprit is probably your shorter bbl than the one they used in the testing. 

832 is lead and 834 if FMJ?  That doesn't sound right.  There should be a greater spread.  It takes less poser to achieve a certain velocity with lead than it does jacketed.  Plated is somewhere in between, probably closer to jacketed a than cast lead, but it depends on the thickness and type of plating. 

Just curious, why such a short OAL?  Or did you mean to type 1.230", not 1.203"? I load my .45acp loads to 1.240-1.250" depending on bullet design. 

[Nealio]

How old is this gun?

[RGinIdaho]

As noted above, there are so many variables. With cast and swaged bullets, the bullet diameter can make a difference. Bullet hardness, primers, chamber dimensions, case capacities, bore diameter, type of rifling, etc.

My load data from several 5" guns and 4" guns shows and average difference of 54fps with several types of 230gr bullets over multiple powders.

The good thing is that you are at a 165.6pf. Plenty of margin if you are shooting in CDP and overkill for SSP. What a lot of folks miss in IDPA is that the PF must be made with a barrel length typical for the division. For CDP and SSP that would be a 5" barrel. You are already there with your 4". Add as little as 25fps to be safe in an unknown 5" gun over the club chrono and you are at 171.3pf.

[luvmy45]

What a lot of folks miss in IDPA is that the PF must be made with a barrel length typical for the division. For CDP and SSP that would be a 5" barrel. You are already there with your 4". Add as little as 25fps to be safe in an unknown 5" gun over the club chrono and you are at 171.3pf.

Very good point, even for those of us that do know, we sometimes forget!!!!

[RevolverLove]

Good points all. Thanks

I was hoping to get close to the 800 FPS. The last thing I need is to get a DQ at the state match because I'm a qhisker under.

LuvMy45's I'm glad you mentioned your speed at 720 and you feel comfotable on a chrono check. Good to know.

Here is what it says on the Winchester site for the recipe:
230 GR. HDY FMJ FP  Winchester  231  .451"  1.200"  4.2  751  13,800 CUP  5.3  832  16,800 CUP       
230 GR. LRN  Winchester  231  .452"  1.200"  4.3  699  12,200 CUP  5.3  834  16,900 CUP 

Both lead and the GD recipe max out at 5.3 with only a two feet per second diff?? Yeah, Check out the length at 1.200 Kids that' short.
The Bullseye recipe called for 1.26 C.O.L.

The gun is a 2006 model. And the reason I'm using the lead specs is because I read on several reloading sites that plated bullets have a thinnner copper layer than a jacketed bullet and thus are more like lead bullets. I've used the jacketed numbers for my plated .38's and it works great so I don't know what the real deal is.

Of course now I see how silly these published speeds are. All the books claim these speeds when ir reality we are going to be 100 fps slower. Give me a break!
Thanks a ton. I thought for sure I was hosing something up bad but glad to see I'm not.

As a side note LuvMy45's, I downloaded your plans for the PVC target stand and built the thing in like 20 min. Works like a charm!! Thank You so much for such an informative site. Just wanted to give you some props. 

The other ver confusing thing is the differance in powder amounts from differant sources. If you look in the Lee Manual for example for 230 gr jacketed for titegroup it will say XX amount of powder. Look in a Nosler book at 230 gr Jacketed it will say Titegroup as YY. So who is correct and what is safe since nobody sees to have load data for plated bullets. Or am I worring for nothing?

[luvmy45]

Your welcome... but I can't take the credit for the target stand, that's another guy at the range... but they do work well, I've got three and I made them so they come apart for transport easier.

Load manuals, you need to have a good reference set, but they are just that, reference. They provide a starting point and some guidelines. But no two guns will shoot the same, so a good chrono is a must, especially if your working with power factors at competitions and for long range dope calculations.

You coming out Sat to the IDPA match? Good chance to test out the gun, loads and trigger finger!

[RevolverLove]

Sadly, This weekend I'll be in Salt Lake for World SuperBike. However I do plan on shooting IDPA in Parma for the summer and fall seasons. I an ride my V-Strom motorcycle out there. I've been shooting at Mampa IDPA.

Thinking of trying the USPSA practice match the first sat in June.

I regularly shoot in the SSR class (MM)and will shoot that in the state match this year but I want to switch to either ESP with my Ruger P95 or CDP with my Desert Eagle.
I actually love shooting the 45's the best. So I may be selling some revolvers and my 9mm and go all in.

Thanks for the advice. Things are a lot clearer. I know see more than ever the value of starting on the mid rage of a load and working up.

I keep reading in peoples threads "Check for signs of over pressure" But nobody ever explains what they are. Other than a split case which of course could ust be brass fatigue. Any ideas on that Ken?

[Nealio]

I keep reading in peoples threads "Check for signs of over pressure" But nobody ever explains what they are. Other than a split case which of course could ust be brass fatigue. Any ideas on that Ken?

I'm not Ken, but from my experience you can tell when you are getting close by looking at your primer.  Here is what I have seen for stages of pressure signs (in increasing order):

The dimple in your primer will start to get pushed back out slightly (loosing definition)
The shoulder of your primer will go from a rounded edge to more square
The primer will look flat like someone hit it with a hammer with a very shallow dimple
The dimple in your primer will push all the way out and start to "flow" into the hole in the breech face.
...
The primer pops out


After this, I don't know what happens, but I suspect its not good..

[44magnut]

The other ver confusing thing is the differance in powder amounts from differant sources. If you look in the Lee Manual for example for 230 gr jacketed for titegroup it will say XX amount of powder. Look in a Nosler book at 230 gr Jacketed it will say Titegroup as YY. So who is correct and what is safe since nobody sees to have load data for plated bullets. Or am I worring for nothing?

Crimp and setting depth makes a big difference. To top that off they are using different test barrels.

[RevolverLove]

That's a good start KTM... I had heard somehting about the primers flatening out. Did not know about the dimple. Good info.
Being careful and not wanting to end up with a gun on the wall at Buckhorn (Guns that have blown up) But yet need to make PF it gets a little worry some with all the conflicting info.

Book X says MAX IS 5.3 GR of 231 and Book Y says 6.2 grains is max.

I will try the Titegroup on my .45's and 9MM and see how it goes.

When I started reloading I did not want to be one of those guys with 10 diff powders laying around all for special little loads.

Guess what? I'm one of those guys now. And I love this reloading. It's become a hobby in itself.

[Jeff]

45ACP is a relatively low pressure round.  If you see any primer stuff going on you are already too hot.

[ballardw]

I'm not Ken, but from my experience you can tell when you are getting close by looking at your primer.  Here is what I have seen for stages of pressure signs (in increasing order):

The dimple in your primer will start to get pushed back out slightly (loosing definition)
The shoulder of your primer will go from a rounded edge to more square
The primer will look flat like someone hit it with a hammer with a very shallow dimple
The dimple in your primer will push all the way out and start to "flow" into the hole in the breech face.
...
The primer pops out


After this, I don't know what happens, but I suspect its not good..

A primer "popped out" may also indicate low pressure as there is insufficient pressure to push the case back against the breech face and reseat the spent primer. In this case the other symptoms mentioned won't be present though.