Topic: Thinking about installing some off the grid power

[sidaemon]

So, I'm thinking about putting in some off the grid power options for my home. My main concern is based around heating, but I wanted to get some input from people who know a lot more about electricity than I do, and I figured here was the place to go.

So here's my situation. Currently my house runs on natural gas to heat. Bills are manageable for me, but my concern hinges around whether or not I will be able to get access to what I need once the snow starts falling. I live in Oregon in Union county were the winters are not terrible (at least not compared to where I grew up) but they are colder than my wife is interested in living in with no heat source in our home.

We have an old chimney in the house, but no wood stove. I have been told that locally its a pain in the ass to get a new wood stove through inspection through the county and looking at wood stoves it seems like a pretty expensive option.

I know from experience that our master bedroom stays pretty warm all on its own, between my wife and I's body heat and the three dogs that sleep in there. I know this because in the winter we turn the furnace down to 45 before bedtime and while the room may get a bit chilly the rest of the house gets bone cold. What I'm thinking about is running an emergency system wherein if there was no gas we could run an electric space heater just to keep us alive and that means an alternative source of generation.

A gas generator is an option, but I would assume any situation where there is no natural gas would most likely mean that gasoline is off as well. Diesel generation is an option but seems like it carries a pretty hefty price tag. This leaves my best options being solar or wind power generation.

And this is where I hit the wall, and need some help with the math to make sure that my assumptions aren't completely off the wall. I understand the basics of how the power generation works. That it can either provide electricity that is simply used on an at need basis, or that it can be combined with deep cycle batteries for energy storage. What I don't understand is the power in vs out equations, or at least I don't think I do, so I'll give an example and if my assumptions are wrong please school me on what I'm missing.

Say I install a 260 watt solar panel. During winter time (assuming I can find a place to align it where it gets good sun during the entire day and also assume that I provide enough batter storage to capture all the energy it provides) I may get 8 hours of good sunlight. This means that the panel would only provide 2 kws. An average space heater running at full capacity runs around 1 kw per hour so it seems this setup means that at best the system would only provide two hours of run time for the heater, correct? That means also that I'd be killing the battery each night (which means a bad battery in no time flat).

The other option is a wind powered turbine. In the winters here, once it gets cold you can count on a sustained wind (and I mean sustained) of about 15 knots. Generally on a daily basis we see gusts of 30 knots or so, with days where it goes into the 60 knot range. It blows like this all night as well, so the wind turbine would be providing power as the heater is drawing it off. A 500 watt turbine combined with the solar cell would boost power generation but it would not provide a full 500 watt per hour boost, for sure.

It seems like this setup would be enough to run the space heater at least part of the night, enough to take the edge of the chill at least, but I could be wrong... Any thoughts on this? Maybe someone has a better option with a wood stove that I haven't thought of?

Thanks for reading, zac.

[NGO]

here is a link to start reading how to size a solar power system

http://www.thegreenestdollar.com/2009/04/sizing-your-solar-power-system/


Do a search for such information..

I did solar / wind / hydro power systems for three years with my own business...before I got married and found out I need to make more money and have benefits...another story.


In all that time I did houses, boats, RV, remote offices, remote pumping , remote sensor type systems...solar panels, solar and wind, solar and hydro....

I honestly tell you no one could afford a system that provided heating...some of the larger system that had a combination solar and hydro or solar and wind had small refrigerators running , but none of them had the size of batteries or power source to run heating.

Remember when sizing your system....you have to factor inefficiency and you have to neverrun your batteries below 80% of capacity...



wood heat, or Propane Blue flame heaters, or Catalytic heaters or wood gasifer systems provided heat for people that lived off the grid. ( electricial and off piped in gas. )


I guess you could do it, if you have enough money...

[junkie]

Look get the wood heat. I know their is govt hassles but when you need the heat the govt has more to worry about than your wood stove. any start in solar as a back up would be good

[Nomad]

 Wood heat. Well worth the effort to have in place can cook, heat water and as well as keep the home warm. Also nice to come in from the outside and warm up and dry your clothes....   

[No-One]

Wood heat , even with its inspection hassles , is probably the most reliable as well as versatile methods I can think of . I spent the summers of my youth in a 2 room cabin high in the Idaho Mountains with a small cook stove as our only method for cooking and heating the place . We went back for hunting season and would X-country ski in to it during the winter . It kept us warm , cooked our food and dried out wet gear without any problems . My Mom lives in a small mountain community still and its the only source of heat they have for their home and a shop big enough to work on a semi in . You might want to ad some kerosene lamps and a 5 gallon jug of kerosene(or more) . They look decorative when not in use and can be darn useful when the power goes out . Last thing to think about is if you have a well on your place how are you going to get the water out of the ground , either a small solar setup with a converter that will run your pump or a hand pump that will bring it out of the ground .

[sidaemon]

I think I will have to look into the wood heating. Anything else is just too damn spendy, and is less than likely to work. I might start building up a solar grid just to get a start on it, a little power is better than nothing at all is the shtf.

As far as well water, I would be screwed there. Live in town and depend on city water, so right now I'm looking at needing to store water for emergencies. Fortunately, I have a 5 foot tall crawlspace underneath the house that is heated, so I have some room for storage.

Thanks for the help guys, zac.

[Grumblecakes]

You might look into a type of geothermal heating. It doesn't use 'hot' water. Rather it pumps water through piping buried 10 or so feet below your property. It won't heat your home to 70 more like around 50ish. But that can be a huge difference. In the summer it will also cool your home. In essence it can maintain a min/ max temp and you can heat or cool from there

[emathey]

You might look into a type of geothermal heating. It doesn't use 'hot' water. Rather it pumps water through piping buried 10 or so feet below your property. It won't heat your home to 70 more like around 50ish. But that can be a huge difference. In the summer it will also cool your home. In essence it can maintain a min/ max temp and you can heat or cool from there

I was reading about this, it's really cool.  It can be pretty expensive up front, but since it requires very little maintenance/energy to operate, it allows you to recoup the cost eventually.  You would have to check specific electricity requirements for use, it might not be feasible but you might be able to use solar power to power it.  50 degrees is a bit chilly, but you won't freeze to death. You may also apply for various tax credits/deductions.  Idaho may also help you finance the project: http://www.dsireusa.org/incentives/incentive.cfm?Incentive_Code=ID02F&re=1&ee=1

http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=tax_credits.tx_index
Idaho Income Tax Deduction: http://www.dsireusa.org/incentives/incentive.cfm?Incentive_Code=ID01F&re=1&ee=1

[sidaemon]

You know when I lived in Klamath I had a house that had geo...

It was the best setup that I ever had. The wife could crank the heat up as much as she wanted and it was really cheap. I think the most I paid for heating those two winters was $30 for the fan to run 24/7.

Also, where I live I know that there are some REALLY active geo vents nearby, I mean to the point that there are boiling water pits within 10 miles of my house, so I shouldn't need to go real deep to get to the vent. It also has the advantage that my furnace is getting into the 15 year range and upgrading it might be wise financially just so it doesn't crap out on me in the middle of winter. I'll take a look at it, get some prices and report back.

[sidaemon]

So I did some checking and I'm definitely thinking geothermal. Found some info that says an installed geo system runs about $24k. In my area, I can get 3k back from my local utility, and another 2k back from the state along with the federal credits that go with it. Getting creative with some financing options and I think I can probably get the system installed for about 12k after all said and done. Right now I'm dropping about 1500 a year to the gas company and I would love to get rid of that bill...

Plus I would finally get air conditioning in the house which will get the wife off my back!

Definitely worth looking into further

[kaen3e]

look into solar hot water.  here in boise the energydoctor has a system i have been looking into that works great in the real world sites i have visited that works on IR and UV rays.  FWIW  they were everywhere in south and central america, when i have been down there.  the difference is they store their heated water outside where we do inside.  a tiny solar panel would run the circ pumps.