Topic: 2 gun

[Spiff]

4 or 5 hours?  it took me 4 or 5 minutes.  What would you like me to 'splain you?   

Now you be quiet OB...............or I'll post sailor jokes!!   

[Orbital-Burn]

you were a silly sailor too!

[Spiff]

you were a silly sailor too!

Damn.........that's just..........damn..........

[Spiff]

So R_Hutch lets get together and talk about this.

If we did this I would really like our courses/course rules to be a bit more tactical. As in you don't walk 1 mph across 20 yards of open ground while engaging multiple targets (like what was depicted in the youtube video). All lame criticism aside, it looks fun. JS, JR and I (as well as others in the group from time to time) put together courses very similar to this several summers ago and ran them all summer long.

If we got our act together we could put something together for the 8th..........maybe.

[tgibson]

Not sure about pulling it off this weekend, but I do have a question on steel.

Travis... I've only shot steel with Pistol and very little with rifle. What's the safe distance for shooting steel with a rifle.. and we would probalby have 223 and 308 going??

Do we need 50 yards or more to be safe. (One of those stupid rules in gaming is the minimum distance to the steel, but it's for safety so I'm all for that!)

If we can get the COF for the larger bays (Bruce???) ahead of time, we could come up with a modified COF for 2 gun and set it right after the match...

So far I can make the December Match... that could be the a trial run... I'll talk with Aaron on Saturday and see what he thinks.

And before you all start complaining about how cold it could be, remember. If it's not raining, it's not training!!!

Brian

50y is sort of pushing it.  If it were up to me, I would say at least 75-80y.  The steel is going to get a little beat up with a .308 at that range, but I think it will be safe.  What fun is shooting a steel target at 50y anyway?  That is way too easy.  I was thinking more along the lines of 6" CSP Auto Poppers off-hand at at least 75y!
TG

[luvmy45]

Thanks Travis, I thought I remembered you talking about that on another board somewhere in time. :-)

Here would be my suggestion for rules:

Safety - Use IDPA safety rules, ie.. cold range, maybe hot range for pistols but probably COLD for rifles.

Divisions - I don't really care as this is just for fun, but I would say 2 divisions.

     Limited - Any Pistol / Open Sight Rifle
     Open - Any Pistol / Scoped Rifle

This way we could at least compare ourselves to like shooters and gives us a basis to track individual progress as well. (I say any pistol, because if we shoot steal, I know that my .45 will knock steel down, while you whimpy 9mm bunny fart shooters take an entire mag to knock steel down at times. ie... patrol shoot  )

Scoring - IDPA Vickers scoring - I like the fact that you get dinged for poor shot placement, accuracy counts.

Mag limitations? - Pistol - NONE, Rifle - ?? Should we limit to max capacity of a 308? with a standard mag?

Now the big questions, do you have to use cover to engage? Do we do shooting on the move? Do we dictate minimum speed at which people can walk or run? etc...

One other thought, it may be time to start a new thread under Events?

Brian

[Lefty_OMorrow]

I know this is an old topic but I'm hoping as we get out of the colder months we can restart this idea and get something going.

I agree, after a few matches, IDPA and IPSIC are both games, my goal is to become a better shooter. R_Hutch and I were talking the other day about how increasing ammo prices could soon turn this into a rich man's sport.

I've been involved in the competitive world of Autocross. It's fun, but again, it quickly turns into a question of how well prepared your car is ($$$.)

A lot of little data points there but to me the bottom line is if I practice CQB with 22LR, 9mm, .40, or .45 pistol and 22LR or 5.56 rifle it doesn't matter near as much as trigger time drill and technique.

Paper registers a hit. Iron registers power. Power gets expensive. I vote paper.

If you have a 1911 that shoots .45 9mm or .22, a Glock or XD, a Ruger Mark1 or a S&W .44mag. If you have an AR15, Mini14, 10/22, AR22 or a Marlin 39A. That's what you have. It's what you presumably want (or consider to be a proxy for what you want) to be proficient in. I say bring it, shoot it, learn it.

Some individual stuff, some two or three man team stuff as we gain proficiency. Some Force on force stuff if we have the airsoft or paintball for it.

I have no military or professional training or experience but am open to learn from those that do. I have some ideas and have heard ideas from others about SHTF situations that I am quite sure are complete bullshit. I want to dispel the bullshit without endangering myself in the process.

Time it and score all of it. That's how each of us can measure our progress. It also throws in a bit of adrenalin. You always move faster when you are timed.

Debrief after each session. Discuss what went wrong, what went right and why. That's how we learn and improve.

The rules should be about safety. No extra holes in ourselves and no danger of extra holes in others.

From what I see this is the right group to do this kind of thing. Let's do it.

[luvmy45]

I agree, after a few matches, IDPA and IPSIC are both games, my goal is to become a better shooter. R_Hutch and I were talking the other day about how increasing ammo prices could soon turn this into a rich man's sport.

If you want to become a better shooter, then IDPA and USPSA are great places to do that. Yes it is a game, yes it can become an arms race, BUT, you will learn what works and what doesn't. IDPA is better than USPSA in that respect, because you can play with what you carry. You can try out different holsters, different belts, different mag holders, different guns with different ammo. You get to see you paper hits and how well you can shoot around/over cover, how fast you can get your gun on targer from concealment, etc...

You learn that Bill Drills, 6 shots on 1 target, are not as easy as you think, and how you handle your gun and make sure your trigger resets. You learn how to focus on your front sight and get hits on target. The biggest thing you learn how to do, is handle your weapon without thinking about it. So that it becames automatic. How many of us can get our cover garment out of the way, draw the gun and put it on target, without fumbling around? How many of us can grab a mag for a reload and stuff it in the gun, without grabbing our cell phones by accident? How many or us, and this is the big one, can reholster the gun without sweeping yourself and LOOKING at the holster as you put it away.

That's the type of stuff that IDPA is really good at doing for you.

Now, tactics... let's not kid ourselves... if we want to learn tactics... we need to get some professional training/coaching from the type of people that we trust. To me that would be military guys that face SHTF scenarios. Or find a friend that has a FS membership and take advantage of their free passes and go learn from them.

If we do a 2 gun, which I am all for, I'm just looking to have some fun shooting whatever with my AR and .45 and seeing if I can improve my AR skills, as those are not what get's practice as much.

bk

[Lefty_OMorrow]

All good points. Loading a cell phone instead of a mag? 

I guess my biggest point is that IDPA is to learning your gun as SCCA Autocross is to learning your car. Yes, they are good at that, but they also have enough rules that you can't keep it truly affordable. Those rules are important to keep the game on a level playing field. If it's not a game then the playing field doesn't have to be level.
 9mm for anyone that doesn't reload is getting expensive and for those of us that do it still costs time to get the reloading done.

[Keebsley]

You're never going to live loading your cell phone instead of a mag down, Lefty.

And I'm set for the 2 gun match.  But I agree with lefty.  Paper instead of steel.  It's all about shot placement, not how much oomph you have behind the bullet.  Yes, it does help but all that power doesn't amount for jack shite if you can't hit what you want to hit.

[Lefty_OMorrow]

You're never going to live loading your cell phone instead of a mag down, Lefty.

It's been almost a year and people are still talking about it. I think that qualifies as legend!   

The important thing I learned from that experience is if I ever get into a firefight that involves six hours and 150 rounds of 9mm I'd better leave my cell pone in my equipment bag!

[Lefty_OMorrow]

Larger calibers do recoil a bit more than .22lr and change how a fast a shooter can acquire the sights for a second round hit. A little recoil affects first round hits for many. The difference between a bunny fart in 9mm or .45 and a full power load in either must make a significant differnece. I say this because many shooters load down even the 9mm to enchance thier scores.

I don't mind a little .22lr fun myself. It's great for teaching form, sight alignment and trigger control but let's not kid ourselves...

And those are all excellent arguments for why the game has to include power factors; To keep the playing field level when people are reloading. And it sounds like a lot of people aren't exactly playing to the rules if I understand your post.

I'm beginning to understand why this thread died.

[luvmy45]

Part of loading down is also about economy. 8 pounds of powder for my .45 will last me about 12,000 rounds at the power factor I load at. That's not gaming it, or trying to follow some rules, that just good sense for making my powder last as long as I can and shoot as much as I can.

There is other reason's to load bunny fart type loads other than "gaming" it. I would call it more like good economical efficiency.

I guess you could say, more Bang for the Buck! 

bk
idpa.kohagen.com

[Keebsley]

Part of loading down is also about economy. 8 pounds of powder for my .45 will last me about 12,000 rounds at the power factor I load at. That's not gaming it, or trying to follow some rules, that just good sense for making my powder last as long as I can and shoot as much as I can.

There is other reason's to load bunny fart type loads other than "gaming" it. I would call it more like good economical efficiency.

I guess you could say, more Bang for the Buck! 

bk
idpa.kohagen.com

Nothing wrong with being economical nowadays considering the prices of ammo.  Hence the reason I went and got a Tac Solutions .22 upper.  I can still do my clearing drills, weapons manipulations, mag changes etc but at a huge fraction of the cost.  Yes, I'm not getting the same recoil from my standard .223 but all it takes is pushing two pins and changing mags and I'm set.  Getting more trigger time is more important to me but if I get that wild hair up my keister than I can quickly get more bang easily.

[luckypunk]

Sorry, I realize this is not quite on topic/ 2 gun. 

I think that the next level of training should include:


airsoft in an CQB setting.  walls, cover ect.  this is the only way to stop racing the clock.  clear a room in which you are unaware of the location of a SHOOTER.

force on force including weapon retention/recovery drills.  I can post video clips of LEO training on this.  Fidel can also input his newly learned Ninja skills on this.



but mostly I just want to shoot you guys w/ plastic BBs

[Spiff]

but mostly I just want to shoot you guys w/ plastic BBs

Not me LP. I got out of paintball 'cause I got tired of it. Airsoft as a sport never really appealed to me. I want to do force on force to practice tactics.

[luckypunk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRuwvBoLP94

I may have to rethink my Saiga 12 for a tactical shotgun.  I shouldered the .410 they have @ Impact & it feels like crap.  maybe with a heavier stock.   err wait, this thread specifically excluded shotguns.

Someone stop me I'm outta control here.