Topic: 2 gun

[R_Hutch]

Thought you guys might be interested in this, seeing as JS and I don't like shotguns.

www.actshooters.com/index.html

They have several stages that could be used when the weather warms up. Some good ideas for us to use. Sounds like fun.

[JollyRoger]

Hahahaha!!!  The "I shoot hostages" tag...I would probably be wearing that thing by the end of the day.

Definitely looks sweet to me, I like the courses that they have lined out on the site.  We could easily do something like that where we go.

[luvmy45]

Just browsing through old topics and I saw this one. I love the 2 gun idea, as I'm just not a shotgun guy. Did anything come of this this last year?

I think it would be cool to do a 2 gun side match at some of the IDPA matches in Parma, especially in the larger bays where we can get some distance.

Any interest?

Brian

[Orbital-Burn]

why does this sound slightly more sensible than IDPA?  Oh yeah, no gay 10 round mag limit.

[egress81]

I like using my shot gun...but mostly on birds and rabbits. If im gonna pick a gun for SHTF is gonna be rifle or pistol I would defintly like to try this.

[Jeff]

2 Gun sounds fun to me.  I was talking to R_Hutch today and I seem to remember talking about some 2 gun tactical stuff.  Maybe he'll chime in.

BTW, I don't remember much about what we talked about because of a funeral (RIP Gene) followed by way too many drinks.

[luvmy45]

10 round limit for SSP and ESP classes makes sense, because there is no standard mag capacity in any gun. Some are 10, others are 13, 15 17 19 etc... if you don't pick a number, then someone with a 17 rounder has an advantage over someone with a 13 rounder. The mag capacity levels the playing field... 

They picked a low number... but that doesn't matter to me, because I shoot CDP which is 9 rounds in my .45. And I'm just about as fast as the guys with 11 rounds in the other division.

I was thinking we would use the IDPA rule set and add the tactical rifle to the equation. That would gives us a basis for scoring and having a rule set already in place. I picked IDPA rules over USPSA because the book is significantly smaller  Tactical rifles seem to be 20 or 30 rounders, and I'd probably suggest limiting the rifles to 20 rounds so the playing field is level there as well.

Besides, I like practicing reloads. It's something I don't do under stress with my rifle and it would be good practice. 

We could setup a course on our own, but I think if we took an IDPA match and used a couple of the COF and modified them after a match for a side shoot, we could make the most of a day and not have to work so hard to have fun.

Thoughts anyone??

[Jeff]

Why level the field?  When I buy a firearm I make decisions that determine it's concealability, usability, etc.  If I have a pistol that has more than a 10 round capacity then I have decided that capacity is important (maybe more important than concealability or comfort or whatever).  Just because someone else decides that capacity is less important why should their decision take precedence over mine?  Because some state decides capacity doesn't mean anything special to me (unless I live there).  Someone that owns and carries a 17 round pistol SHOULD have an advantage.

Make a rule that the pistol must be concealed (if that's even important for a 2 gun event).  Check for that.  Don't make some stupid rule limiting the force I can bear on some arbitrary number.

[Michael N]

The reason I never started shooting IDPA was based solely on the 10 round limitation . I just couldnt see going backwards especially when this was supposed to be training for live or die situations . The reality is that under stressful situations you are going to fall back to your training and reloading your weapon after 10 rounds when you still have 5 to 7 left in it is gonna seem real silly when you get shot during the reload . I am not saying one sport over the other is better or worse just what my rationalization was when I chose no to take up IDPA as a discipline . IPSC may not have been any better of a training ground but I was free to make my own decisions on what to carry , how to carry and how to engage targets  . I could make it as realistic or as stupid as I wanted too .

My .02 , YMMV , IMHO , Yada Yada , Blah Blah

[luvmy45]

Ok, I'm not making enemy's here, but just want to clear the air on 1 thing.

IDPA is NOT a Training program, Never has been, never will be. Please, please, please... do not refer to it, or any shooting GAME as a training program, it's not it's just a game.

Jeff, Why level the field? Because it's a game, imagine if we played Chess, and I used my rules that pawns are all queens, and your rules are Pawns are pawns... who would win?

In real life, you die, you lose, but we can't use that rule in a game.

Michael, As I noted, IDPA is NOT a training program... you should come out and shoot a match, it is a blast, but it is a GAME. You don't stop the action and reload after 10 shots, in fact most people don't count their shots, they shoot to slide lock and then reload.  Under stress if your gun goes to slide lock are you prepared to reload it? 10 rounds or 17 ?

To All - IDPA, IPSC whatever GAME you want to play, all they teach you is better gun handling skills, reloading techniques, and stimulate some shooting with a little adrenaline in your body. Because I've been shooting IDPA and IPSC, I can deftly handle my pistol, load and reload it blindfolded, holster and reholster without looking, etc... sure I can do that practicing at home, but it's a heck of a lot more fun with a bunch of guys and girls at the range than going out somewhere by myself. And I can win cool toys and plaques 

Now, if we want to do 2 gun, Parma has 2 large pistol pits that would be ideal for long gun and pistol stages... If we did it on a day that IDPA was in the morning, we could use their targets and stands that are already setup, move a few around and be shooting in about rather quickly.

We don't have to use rules, but I do like to have a timer to see how fast I can do it. and if I can run it more than once, I'm hoping I can see an improvement in my times. And if we limit the round counts in the guns, then I can compare my times to your times.

Ok, that was a long post... I'm going out plinking with my in-laws tomorrow and going to blow a bunch rounds down range just for FUN!.

The rest of you, come out to Parma for the IDPA match on Saturday, if you've never shot IDPA you will have a blast. If your out of town, come out to Nampa on the first Saturday for a Great time at IPSC.

Happy Thanksgiving!

Brian

[Jeff]

Yea, I understand your POV.  I just don't consider it a game.  It may be the only "training" some people get.  And as has been pointed out many times that in a real situation you're most likely going to do what you train.  That's why I don't shoot IDPA.  No offense meant.  Just my POV. 

BTW, if I were playing chess for my life I'd really want to bring, and use, all queens.  And I'd hope my opponent brought all pawns (and "trained" with with them). 

[Orbital-Burn]

another bad point of IDPA is the moving while firing.  If you are only moving back, you might as well not be moving at all.

Note:  shooting with IDPA is better than not shooting at all!!!!

which reminds me, I'm gonna have to go out shooting on friday or saturday....

[Spiff]

Most self defense instructors teach moving, including moving backwards. If your a good shot and your opponent is a mediocre shot then distance, any distance, is your friend and his/her enemy. Like he who shall not be named says: "It's good for you and bad for him".

[luvmy45]

another bad point of IDPA is the moving while firing.  If you are only moving back, you might as well not be moving at all.

Note:  shooting with IDPA is better than not shooting at all!!!!

which reminds me, I'm gonna have to go out shooting on friday or saturday....

Why is knowing how to shoot while moving bad?


Brian

[luvmy45]

Yea, I understand your POV.  I just don't consider it a game.  It may be the only "training" some people get.  And as has been pointed out many times that in a real situation you're most likely going to do what you train.  That's why I don't shoot IDPA.  No offense meant.  Just my POV. 

Warning, Rant Mode on and could contain statments that will ruffle your feathers. 

It's not my POV it is the stated purpose of IDPA. I just can't figure out why people make IDPA into something that it was never meant to be, or ever will be. And then bash the rules that they put forth because they don't think it's Tactical enough, or proper training. It's NOT training...

If you want training, go to Frontsight, Blackwater, Gunsite, join the military or become a LEO. OR come and shoot the Patrol shoot, now that was fun and basically you had no rules but to hit the target and work with a team.

I have run into several people with the same attitude, and I can't figure out why? If you want tactics, go get them, but don't complain that a sport with 10,000+ members is a bad thing because they don't teach tactics, because that's not what they intended to do.

And your right, you will do what you train to do when faced with a stressful situation. And if you only shot IDPA, that would be 1) find cover, 2) draw your weapon from concealment, 3) Identify your target, 4) shoot COM or Head shots, 5) reload as necessary.

And I ask, even though IDPA doesn't teach tactics, what' s wrong with executing those tactics if that's the only training you have?

Ok, off my soap box and off to the reloading bench... I need more .223!

Brian

[Jeff]

Why is knowing how to shoot while moving bad?

I think OB is questioning the moving straight backwards.  Spiff posted his take on it.  I don't really agree with Spiff either.  We've argued over it before and I'm sure neither will change.  

I think the bottom line is we're really discussing why we like or dislike IDPA instead of what a 2 gun event might be.  I see no real reason to have a 2 gun IDPA event.  3 gun is really more "tactical" and I think is limiting itself because there are a lot of people who don't have or don't want to shoot a shotgun.  Having a 2 gun tactical event seems like it would better fill a void than adding a rifle to IDPA.  I could be wrong.  

[luckypunk]

Most self defense instructors  ....Like he who shall not be named....(snip)

I think Gabe Suarez needs his own Forum

[Orbital-Burn]

If you want training, go to ......or become a LEO.

oh hell no

I can already shoot better than 98% of LEO...

Brian, don't take anything we say personally, I have the vocabulary of a drunken sailor, none of us hold anything against anyone personally.  (unless of course you wish to hold it against us)  (and what a coincidence, I was a drunken sailor )

[luvmy45]

I think OB is questioning the moving straight backwards.  Spiff posted his take on it.  I don't really agree with Spiff either.  We've argued over it before and I'm sure neither will change. 

I think the bottom line is we're really discussing why we like or dislike IDPA instead of what a 2 gun event might be.  I see no real reason to have a 2 gun IDPA event.  3 gun is really more "tactical" and I think is limiting itself because there are a lot of people who don't have or don't want to shoot a shotgun.  Having a 2 gun tactical event seems like it would better fill a void than adding a rifle to IDPA.  I could be wrong. 

Yeah we've drifted OT... nature of the message boards... :-( My Fault, sorry about that.

I don't want to do a 2 gun IDPA match... My thought was that if everyone was at least familiar with the IDPA rules, we could just add a rifle to the equation, throw in a timer and have a ready made match without a whole lot of planning... I don't want to start another "Sport" shooting event... just have some fun in a framework that is already established...

I don't do 3 gun as of yet, because I don't own a shotgun... that may change and I may take up 3 gun in the future... the Ironman looks like fun! 

Back on topic... if we wanted to do 2 gun, and have some boundries and rules... we could just merely use the bays with the IDPA or IPSC for that matter depending on which weekend we chose... and have some fun... That way we could run the timer, and compare ourselves to each other and with ourselves to see how good we are.

Anyone can hit a target in the center by themselves at the range... it's an entirely different thing to do it under stress of time and the "boys" behind you yelling to, MOVE, MOVE, MOVE!!!! Like at the Patrol shoot.

Orbital - Burn, Thanks for the advise... I'll step off my soap box, I just needed to correct the misconceptions I felt were out there on IDPA... It's just a game, and I get my feathers ruffled when people say IDPA sucks because it's not training... 

Brian

[R_Hutch]

Remember, games have rules to make it fair. In life there are no rules, especially when the SHTF and you have to revert to prior training and muscle memory.

The 2 gun from the website I posted looks like fun.

R_Hutch

[Orbital-Burn]

it does look pretty cool Ryan, why wait until it warms up   

I've noticed most times I go by the shop, Ryan has found some good excuse to not be there....

[R_Hutch]

If I were ever in a SHTF situation and had my .22lr bolt gun, I guess I would just have to lay down and die...
               

If this is what your training and/or muscle memory dictated then yes, you would. 

OB-I never make excuses. 

[luvmy45]

Not sure about pulling it off this weekend, but I do have a question on steel.

Travis... I've only shot steel with Pistol and very little with rifle. What's the safe distance for shooting steel with a rifle.. and we would probalby have 223 and 308 going??

Do we need 50 yards or more to be safe. (One of those stupid rules in gaming is the minimum distance to the steel, but it's for safety so I'm all for that!)

If we can get the COF for the larger bays (Bruce???) ahead of time, we could come up with a modified COF for 2 gun and set it right after the match...

So far I can make the December Match... that could be the a trial run... I'll talk with Aaron on Saturday and see what he thinks.

And before you all start complaining about how cold it could be, remember. If it's not raining, it's not training!!!

Brian

[Spiff]

I'll try it, it sounds fun (I had a blast on the Patrol Shoot, my legs stopped aching just yesterday...). And weather is not an issue. As a matter of fact, the nastier the better........builds character.

Now if you'll excuse me, I've put on a pot of coffee and I've told the family to leave me alone for 4 or 5 hours while I digest the short list of rules associated with our new "game/sport". 

[Orbital-Burn]

4 or 5 hours?  it took me 4 or 5 minutes.  What would you like me to 'splain you?   

[Spiff]

4 or 5 hours?  it took me 4 or 5 minutes.  What would you like me to 'splain you?   

Now you be quiet OB...............or I'll post sailor jokes!!   

[Orbital-Burn]

you were a silly sailor too!

[Spiff]

you were a silly sailor too!

Damn.........that's just..........damn..........

[Spiff]

So R_Hutch lets get together and talk about this.

If we did this I would really like our courses/course rules to be a bit more tactical. As in you don't walk 1 mph across 20 yards of open ground while engaging multiple targets (like what was depicted in the youtube video). All lame criticism aside, it looks fun. JS, JR and I (as well as others in the group from time to time) put together courses very similar to this several summers ago and ran them all summer long.

If we got our act together we could put something together for the 8th..........maybe.

[tgibson]

Not sure about pulling it off this weekend, but I do have a question on steel.

Travis... I've only shot steel with Pistol and very little with rifle. What's the safe distance for shooting steel with a rifle.. and we would probalby have 223 and 308 going??

Do we need 50 yards or more to be safe. (One of those stupid rules in gaming is the minimum distance to the steel, but it's for safety so I'm all for that!)

If we can get the COF for the larger bays (Bruce???) ahead of time, we could come up with a modified COF for 2 gun and set it right after the match...

So far I can make the December Match... that could be the a trial run... I'll talk with Aaron on Saturday and see what he thinks.

And before you all start complaining about how cold it could be, remember. If it's not raining, it's not training!!!

Brian

50y is sort of pushing it.  If it were up to me, I would say at least 75-80y.  The steel is going to get a little beat up with a .308 at that range, but I think it will be safe.  What fun is shooting a steel target at 50y anyway?  That is way too easy.  I was thinking more along the lines of 6" CSP Auto Poppers off-hand at at least 75y!
TG

[luvmy45]

Thanks Travis, I thought I remembered you talking about that on another board somewhere in time. :-)

Here would be my suggestion for rules:

Safety - Use IDPA safety rules, ie.. cold range, maybe hot range for pistols but probably COLD for rifles.

Divisions - I don't really care as this is just for fun, but I would say 2 divisions.

     Limited - Any Pistol / Open Sight Rifle
     Open - Any Pistol / Scoped Rifle

This way we could at least compare ourselves to like shooters and gives us a basis to track individual progress as well. (I say any pistol, because if we shoot steal, I know that my .45 will knock steel down, while you whimpy 9mm bunny fart shooters take an entire mag to knock steel down at times. ie... patrol shoot  )

Scoring - IDPA Vickers scoring - I like the fact that you get dinged for poor shot placement, accuracy counts.

Mag limitations? - Pistol - NONE, Rifle - ?? Should we limit to max capacity of a 308? with a standard mag?

Now the big questions, do you have to use cover to engage? Do we do shooting on the move? Do we dictate minimum speed at which people can walk or run? etc...

One other thought, it may be time to start a new thread under Events?

Brian

[Lefty_OMorrow]

I know this is an old topic but I'm hoping as we get out of the colder months we can restart this idea and get something going.

I agree, after a few matches, IDPA and IPSIC are both games, my goal is to become a better shooter. R_Hutch and I were talking the other day about how increasing ammo prices could soon turn this into a rich man's sport.

I've been involved in the competitive world of Autocross. It's fun, but again, it quickly turns into a question of how well prepared your car is ($$$.)

A lot of little data points there but to me the bottom line is if I practice CQB with 22LR, 9mm, .40, or .45 pistol and 22LR or 5.56 rifle it doesn't matter near as much as trigger time drill and technique.

Paper registers a hit. Iron registers power. Power gets expensive. I vote paper.

If you have a 1911 that shoots .45 9mm or .22, a Glock or XD, a Ruger Mark1 or a S&W .44mag. If you have an AR15, Mini14, 10/22, AR22 or a Marlin 39A. That's what you have. It's what you presumably want (or consider to be a proxy for what you want) to be proficient in. I say bring it, shoot it, learn it.

Some individual stuff, some two or three man team stuff as we gain proficiency. Some Force on force stuff if we have the airsoft or paintball for it.

I have no military or professional training or experience but am open to learn from those that do. I have some ideas and have heard ideas from others about SHTF situations that I am quite sure are complete bullshit. I want to dispel the bullshit without endangering myself in the process.

Time it and score all of it. That's how each of us can measure our progress. It also throws in a bit of adrenalin. You always move faster when you are timed.

Debrief after each session. Discuss what went wrong, what went right and why. That's how we learn and improve.

The rules should be about safety. No extra holes in ourselves and no danger of extra holes in others.

From what I see this is the right group to do this kind of thing. Let's do it.

[luvmy45]

I agree, after a few matches, IDPA and IPSIC are both games, my goal is to become a better shooter. R_Hutch and I were talking the other day about how increasing ammo prices could soon turn this into a rich man's sport.

If you want to become a better shooter, then IDPA and USPSA are great places to do that. Yes it is a game, yes it can become an arms race, BUT, you will learn what works and what doesn't. IDPA is better than USPSA in that respect, because you can play with what you carry. You can try out different holsters, different belts, different mag holders, different guns with different ammo. You get to see you paper hits and how well you can shoot around/over cover, how fast you can get your gun on targer from concealment, etc...

You learn that Bill Drills, 6 shots on 1 target, are not as easy as you think, and how you handle your gun and make sure your trigger resets. You learn how to focus on your front sight and get hits on target. The biggest thing you learn how to do, is handle your weapon without thinking about it. So that it becames automatic. How many of us can get our cover garment out of the way, draw the gun and put it on target, without fumbling around? How many of us can grab a mag for a reload and stuff it in the gun, without grabbing our cell phones by accident? How many or us, and this is the big one, can reholster the gun without sweeping yourself and LOOKING at the holster as you put it away.

That's the type of stuff that IDPA is really good at doing for you.

Now, tactics... let's not kid ourselves... if we want to learn tactics... we need to get some professional training/coaching from the type of people that we trust. To me that would be military guys that face SHTF scenarios. Or find a friend that has a FS membership and take advantage of their free passes and go learn from them.

If we do a 2 gun, which I am all for, I'm just looking to have some fun shooting whatever with my AR and .45 and seeing if I can improve my AR skills, as those are not what get's practice as much.

bk

[Lefty_OMorrow]

All good points. Loading a cell phone instead of a mag? 

I guess my biggest point is that IDPA is to learning your gun as SCCA Autocross is to learning your car. Yes, they are good at that, but they also have enough rules that you can't keep it truly affordable. Those rules are important to keep the game on a level playing field. If it's not a game then the playing field doesn't have to be level.
 9mm for anyone that doesn't reload is getting expensive and for those of us that do it still costs time to get the reloading done.

[Keebsley]

You're never going to live loading your cell phone instead of a mag down, Lefty.

And I'm set for the 2 gun match.  But I agree with lefty.  Paper instead of steel.  It's all about shot placement, not how much oomph you have behind the bullet.  Yes, it does help but all that power doesn't amount for jack shite if you can't hit what you want to hit.

[Lefty_OMorrow]

You're never going to live loading your cell phone instead of a mag down, Lefty.

It's been almost a year and people are still talking about it. I think that qualifies as legend!   

The important thing I learned from that experience is if I ever get into a firefight that involves six hours and 150 rounds of 9mm I'd better leave my cell pone in my equipment bag!

[Lefty_OMorrow]

Larger calibers do recoil a bit more than .22lr and change how a fast a shooter can acquire the sights for a second round hit. A little recoil affects first round hits for many. The difference between a bunny fart in 9mm or .45 and a full power load in either must make a significant differnece. I say this because many shooters load down even the 9mm to enchance thier scores.

I don't mind a little .22lr fun myself. It's great for teaching form, sight alignment and trigger control but let's not kid ourselves...

And those are all excellent arguments for why the game has to include power factors; To keep the playing field level when people are reloading. And it sounds like a lot of people aren't exactly playing to the rules if I understand your post.

I'm beginning to understand why this thread died.

[luvmy45]

Part of loading down is also about economy. 8 pounds of powder for my .45 will last me about 12,000 rounds at the power factor I load at. That's not gaming it, or trying to follow some rules, that just good sense for making my powder last as long as I can and shoot as much as I can.

There is other reason's to load bunny fart type loads other than "gaming" it. I would call it more like good economical efficiency.

I guess you could say, more Bang for the Buck! 

bk
idpa.kohagen.com

[Keebsley]

Part of loading down is also about economy. 8 pounds of powder for my .45 will last me about 12,000 rounds at the power factor I load at. That's not gaming it, or trying to follow some rules, that just good sense for making my powder last as long as I can and shoot as much as I can.

There is other reason's to load bunny fart type loads other than "gaming" it. I would call it more like good economical efficiency.

I guess you could say, more Bang for the Buck! 

bk
idpa.kohagen.com

Nothing wrong with being economical nowadays considering the prices of ammo.  Hence the reason I went and got a Tac Solutions .22 upper.  I can still do my clearing drills, weapons manipulations, mag changes etc but at a huge fraction of the cost.  Yes, I'm not getting the same recoil from my standard .223 but all it takes is pushing two pins and changing mags and I'm set.  Getting more trigger time is more important to me but if I get that wild hair up my keister than I can quickly get more bang easily.

[luckypunk]

Sorry, I realize this is not quite on topic/ 2 gun. 

I think that the next level of training should include:


airsoft in an CQB setting.  walls, cover ect.  this is the only way to stop racing the clock.  clear a room in which you are unaware of the location of a SHOOTER.

force on force including weapon retention/recovery drills.  I can post video clips of LEO training on this.  Fidel can also input his newly learned Ninja skills on this.



but mostly I just want to shoot you guys w/ plastic BBs

[Spiff]

but mostly I just want to shoot you guys w/ plastic BBs

Not me LP. I got out of paintball 'cause I got tired of it. Airsoft as a sport never really appealed to me. I want to do force on force to practice tactics.

[luckypunk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRuwvBoLP94

I may have to rethink my Saiga 12 for a tactical shotgun.  I shouldered the .410 they have @ Impact & it feels like crap.  maybe with a heavier stock.   err wait, this thread specifically excluded shotguns.

Someone stop me I'm outta control here.