Topic: 2 gun

[R_Hutch]

Thought you guys might be interested in this, seeing as JS and I don't like shotguns.

www.actshooters.com/index.html

They have several stages that could be used when the weather warms up. Some good ideas for us to use. Sounds like fun.

[JollyRoger]

Hahahaha!!!  The "I shoot hostages" tag...I would probably be wearing that thing by the end of the day.

Definitely looks sweet to me, I like the courses that they have lined out on the site.  We could easily do something like that where we go.

[luvmy45]

Just browsing through old topics and I saw this one. I love the 2 gun idea, as I'm just not a shotgun guy. Did anything come of this this last year?

I think it would be cool to do a 2 gun side match at some of the IDPA matches in Parma, especially in the larger bays where we can get some distance.

Any interest?

Brian

[Orbital-Burn]

why does this sound slightly more sensible than IDPA?  Oh yeah, no gay 10 round mag limit.

[egress81]

I like using my shot gun...but mostly on birds and rabbits. If im gonna pick a gun for SHTF is gonna be rifle or pistol I would defintly like to try this.

[Jeff]

2 Gun sounds fun to me.  I was talking to R_Hutch today and I seem to remember talking about some 2 gun tactical stuff.  Maybe he'll chime in.

BTW, I don't remember much about what we talked about because of a funeral (RIP Gene) followed by way too many drinks.

[luvmy45]

10 round limit for SSP and ESP classes makes sense, because there is no standard mag capacity in any gun. Some are 10, others are 13, 15 17 19 etc... if you don't pick a number, then someone with a 17 rounder has an advantage over someone with a 13 rounder. The mag capacity levels the playing field... 

They picked a low number... but that doesn't matter to me, because I shoot CDP which is 9 rounds in my .45. And I'm just about as fast as the guys with 11 rounds in the other division.

I was thinking we would use the IDPA rule set and add the tactical rifle to the equation. That would gives us a basis for scoring and having a rule set already in place. I picked IDPA rules over USPSA because the book is significantly smaller  Tactical rifles seem to be 20 or 30 rounders, and I'd probably suggest limiting the rifles to 20 rounds so the playing field is level there as well.

Besides, I like practicing reloads. It's something I don't do under stress with my rifle and it would be good practice. 

We could setup a course on our own, but I think if we took an IDPA match and used a couple of the COF and modified them after a match for a side shoot, we could make the most of a day and not have to work so hard to have fun.

Thoughts anyone??

[Jeff]

Why level the field?  When I buy a firearm I make decisions that determine it's concealability, usability, etc.  If I have a pistol that has more than a 10 round capacity then I have decided that capacity is important (maybe more important than concealability or comfort or whatever).  Just because someone else decides that capacity is less important why should their decision take precedence over mine?  Because some state decides capacity doesn't mean anything special to me (unless I live there).  Someone that owns and carries a 17 round pistol SHOULD have an advantage.

Make a rule that the pistol must be concealed (if that's even important for a 2 gun event).  Check for that.  Don't make some stupid rule limiting the force I can bear on some arbitrary number.

[Michael N]

The reason I never started shooting IDPA was based solely on the 10 round limitation . I just couldnt see going backwards especially when this was supposed to be training for live or die situations . The reality is that under stressful situations you are going to fall back to your training and reloading your weapon after 10 rounds when you still have 5 to 7 left in it is gonna seem real silly when you get shot during the reload . I am not saying one sport over the other is better or worse just what my rationalization was when I chose no to take up IDPA as a discipline . IPSC may not have been any better of a training ground but I was free to make my own decisions on what to carry , how to carry and how to engage targets  . I could make it as realistic or as stupid as I wanted too .

My .02 , YMMV , IMHO , Yada Yada , Blah Blah

[luvmy45]

Ok, I'm not making enemy's here, but just want to clear the air on 1 thing.

IDPA is NOT a Training program, Never has been, never will be. Please, please, please... do not refer to it, or any shooting GAME as a training program, it's not it's just a game.

Jeff, Why level the field? Because it's a game, imagine if we played Chess, and I used my rules that pawns are all queens, and your rules are Pawns are pawns... who would win?

In real life, you die, you lose, but we can't use that rule in a game.

Michael, As I noted, IDPA is NOT a training program... you should come out and shoot a match, it is a blast, but it is a GAME. You don't stop the action and reload after 10 shots, in fact most people don't count their shots, they shoot to slide lock and then reload.  Under stress if your gun goes to slide lock are you prepared to reload it? 10 rounds or 17 ?

To All - IDPA, IPSC whatever GAME you want to play, all they teach you is better gun handling skills, reloading techniques, and stimulate some shooting with a little adrenaline in your body. Because I've been shooting IDPA and IPSC, I can deftly handle my pistol, load and reload it blindfolded, holster and reholster without looking, etc... sure I can do that practicing at home, but it's a heck of a lot more fun with a bunch of guys and girls at the range than going out somewhere by myself. And I can win cool toys and plaques 

Now, if we want to do 2 gun, Parma has 2 large pistol pits that would be ideal for long gun and pistol stages... If we did it on a day that IDPA was in the morning, we could use their targets and stands that are already setup, move a few around and be shooting in about rather quickly.

We don't have to use rules, but I do like to have a timer to see how fast I can do it. and if I can run it more than once, I'm hoping I can see an improvement in my times. And if we limit the round counts in the guns, then I can compare my times to your times.

Ok, that was a long post... I'm going out plinking with my in-laws tomorrow and going to blow a bunch rounds down range just for FUN!.

The rest of you, come out to Parma for the IDPA match on Saturday, if you've never shot IDPA you will have a blast. If your out of town, come out to Nampa on the first Saturday for a Great time at IPSC.

Happy Thanksgiving!

Brian

[Jeff]

Yea, I understand your POV.  I just don't consider it a game.  It may be the only "training" some people get.  And as has been pointed out many times that in a real situation you're most likely going to do what you train.  That's why I don't shoot IDPA.  No offense meant.  Just my POV. 

BTW, if I were playing chess for my life I'd really want to bring, and use, all queens.  And I'd hope my opponent brought all pawns (and "trained" with with them). 

[Orbital-Burn]

another bad point of IDPA is the moving while firing.  If you are only moving back, you might as well not be moving at all.

Note:  shooting with IDPA is better than not shooting at all!!!!

which reminds me, I'm gonna have to go out shooting on friday or saturday....

[Spiff]

Most self defense instructors teach moving, including moving backwards. If your a good shot and your opponent is a mediocre shot then distance, any distance, is your friend and his/her enemy. Like he who shall not be named says: "It's good for you and bad for him".

[luvmy45]

another bad point of IDPA is the moving while firing.  If you are only moving back, you might as well not be moving at all.

Note:  shooting with IDPA is better than not shooting at all!!!!

which reminds me, I'm gonna have to go out shooting on friday or saturday....

Why is knowing how to shoot while moving bad?


Brian

[luvmy45]

Yea, I understand your POV.  I just don't consider it a game.  It may be the only "training" some people get.  And as has been pointed out many times that in a real situation you're most likely going to do what you train.  That's why I don't shoot IDPA.  No offense meant.  Just my POV. 

Warning, Rant Mode on and could contain statments that will ruffle your feathers. 

It's not my POV it is the stated purpose of IDPA. I just can't figure out why people make IDPA into something that it was never meant to be, or ever will be. And then bash the rules that they put forth because they don't think it's Tactical enough, or proper training. It's NOT training...

If you want training, go to Frontsight, Blackwater, Gunsite, join the military or become a LEO. OR come and shoot the Patrol shoot, now that was fun and basically you had no rules but to hit the target and work with a team.

I have run into several people with the same attitude, and I can't figure out why? If you want tactics, go get them, but don't complain that a sport with 10,000+ members is a bad thing because they don't teach tactics, because that's not what they intended to do.

And your right, you will do what you train to do when faced with a stressful situation. And if you only shot IDPA, that would be 1) find cover, 2) draw your weapon from concealment, 3) Identify your target, 4) shoot COM or Head shots, 5) reload as necessary.

And I ask, even though IDPA doesn't teach tactics, what' s wrong with executing those tactics if that's the only training you have?

Ok, off my soap box and off to the reloading bench... I need more .223!

Brian

[Jeff]

Why is knowing how to shoot while moving bad?

I think OB is questioning the moving straight backwards.  Spiff posted his take on it.  I don't really agree with Spiff either.  We've argued over it before and I'm sure neither will change.  

I think the bottom line is we're really discussing why we like or dislike IDPA instead of what a 2 gun event might be.  I see no real reason to have a 2 gun IDPA event.  3 gun is really more "tactical" and I think is limiting itself because there are a lot of people who don't have or don't want to shoot a shotgun.  Having a 2 gun tactical event seems like it would better fill a void than adding a rifle to IDPA.  I could be wrong.  

[luckypunk]

Most self defense instructors  ....Like he who shall not be named....(snip)

I think Gabe Suarez needs his own Forum

[Orbital-Burn]

If you want training, go to ......or become a LEO.

oh hell no

I can already shoot better than 98% of LEO...

Brian, don't take anything we say personally, I have the vocabulary of a drunken sailor, none of us hold anything against anyone personally.  (unless of course you wish to hold it against us)  (and what a coincidence, I was a drunken sailor )

[luvmy45]

I think OB is questioning the moving straight backwards.  Spiff posted his take on it.  I don't really agree with Spiff either.  We've argued over it before and I'm sure neither will change. 

I think the bottom line is we're really discussing why we like or dislike IDPA instead of what a 2 gun event might be.  I see no real reason to have a 2 gun IDPA event.  3 gun is really more "tactical" and I think is limiting itself because there are a lot of people who don't have or don't want to shoot a shotgun.  Having a 2 gun tactical event seems like it would better fill a void than adding a rifle to IDPA.  I could be wrong. 

Yeah we've drifted OT... nature of the message boards... :-( My Fault, sorry about that.

I don't want to do a 2 gun IDPA match... My thought was that if everyone was at least familiar with the IDPA rules, we could just add a rifle to the equation, throw in a timer and have a ready made match without a whole lot of planning... I don't want to start another "Sport" shooting event... just have some fun in a framework that is already established...

I don't do 3 gun as of yet, because I don't own a shotgun... that may change and I may take up 3 gun in the future... the Ironman looks like fun! 

Back on topic... if we wanted to do 2 gun, and have some boundries and rules... we could just merely use the bays with the IDPA or IPSC for that matter depending on which weekend we chose... and have some fun... That way we could run the timer, and compare ourselves to each other and with ourselves to see how good we are.

Anyone can hit a target in the center by themselves at the range... it's an entirely different thing to do it under stress of time and the "boys" behind you yelling to, MOVE, MOVE, MOVE!!!! Like at the Patrol shoot.

Orbital - Burn, Thanks for the advise... I'll step off my soap box, I just needed to correct the misconceptions I felt were out there on IDPA... It's just a game, and I get my feathers ruffled when people say IDPA sucks because it's not training... 

Brian

[R_Hutch]

Remember, games have rules to make it fair. In life there are no rules, especially when the SHTF and you have to revert to prior training and muscle memory.

The 2 gun from the website I posted looks like fun.

R_Hutch

[Orbital-Burn]

it does look pretty cool Ryan, why wait until it warms up   

I've noticed most times I go by the shop, Ryan has found some good excuse to not be there....

[R_Hutch]

If I were ever in a SHTF situation and had my .22lr bolt gun, I guess I would just have to lay down and die...
               

If this is what your training and/or muscle memory dictated then yes, you would. 

OB-I never make excuses. 

[luvmy45]

Not sure about pulling it off this weekend, but I do have a question on steel.

Travis... I've only shot steel with Pistol and very little with rifle. What's the safe distance for shooting steel with a rifle.. and we would probalby have 223 and 308 going??

Do we need 50 yards or more to be safe. (One of those stupid rules in gaming is the minimum distance to the steel, but it's for safety so I'm all for that!)

If we can get the COF for the larger bays (Bruce???) ahead of time, we could come up with a modified COF for 2 gun and set it right after the match...

So far I can make the December Match... that could be the a trial run... I'll talk with Aaron on Saturday and see what he thinks.

And before you all start complaining about how cold it could be, remember. If it's not raining, it's not training!!!

Brian

[Spiff]

I'll try it, it sounds fun (I had a blast on the Patrol Shoot, my legs stopped aching just yesterday...). And weather is not an issue. As a matter of fact, the nastier the better........builds character.

Now if you'll excuse me, I've put on a pot of coffee and I've told the family to leave me alone for 4 or 5 hours while I digest the short list of rules associated with our new "game/sport". 

[Orbital-Burn]

4 or 5 hours?  it took me 4 or 5 minutes.  What would you like me to 'splain you?