Topic: What dies should I use for LRTR?

[danno12345]

I'm looking to play in the LRTR type games, and am wondering what dies should I get for reloading?

I bought Farlo's 308, so I'll be working with a Savage 10PC.  I'm thinking of starting with 175 SMK for the nice BC & Varget due to recommendations here and other places. 

As far as dies, should I get an expensive seating die right off the bat, or would a standard die set be sufficient? Sizing die recommendations?  Full length, neck, bump & neck?

I've reloaded for my .222 Rem & .40 S&W for several years, so I'm familiar with general reloading principles, but have never gotten serious about chasing accuracy.  I've got a rockchucker setup presently.

Thanks for any advice, I know the thing I'll need most is trigger time, but want to get started in the right direction.


Dan

[Jeff]

Even if you neck size you will need to full length size occasionally. I prefer a micrometer seating die. Redding and Hornady are what I use.

[fj40mojo]

I don't personally play the LRTR game, but it would seem to me that you are not going to build benchrest ammo for a battle field game. You need reliable ammo that is gonna chamber every time regardless of chamber condition. Accuracy is essential but minute of man is a far cry from trying to shoot tiny groups at 1K. You are gonna need a full length die set anyways so that is where I'd start, whatever brand you like. Get the equipment you need to measure your shoulders so you can truely set your sizing die correctly and measure seating depth accurately, the Hornady L-N-L headspace bushings and COAL gauges  combined with a good quality caliper and a micrometer seater is a good upgrade too. Buy quality reloading components, Lapua brass is worth the money. Let me know how it goes, my 10PC is still new in the box unfired. I need to get it outta hock so I can start playing sniper.

[zona5101]

I don't personally play the LRTR game, but it would seem to me that you are not going to build benchrest ammo for a battle field game.

ya but you are... lrtr is precision rifle, what separates it from bench rest is the inclusion of field/land nav, alternative methods of ranging, variable shooting positions and working/communicating with a spotter. We're still trying to do moa/sub moa work just at 800 yards or more...

btw, your advice on the items to get is perfect. Need to be able to measure the ogive and setback.

[RGinIdaho]

If cost is and issue, you can take basic, quality dies and build good LR ammo. Measuring as FJ suggests is critical to reloading consistent ammo. It can also help you avoid safety issues with regard to proper headspacing.

I like the Redding bushing neck dies and full length bushing dies. I can control neck tension when I neck size and full length size.  I also use the Redding Mic seating die to help with concentric seating.

[danno12345]

Thanks for the replies!

Cost is an issue (I'm cheap...), but I'd like to buy dies once and be done with it.  I'm eyeballing the Forster FL die/micrometer seating die set, planning on trying to adjust it to only bump the shoulder back without sizing the body too much.  Am I picturing this right, or do I need something else sizing wise?

From what I read, the Forster seating die works like the Redding seater, and should be a good one.

The Hornady comparator and an OAL gauge is on my list also, thanks for the suggestion.

Nobody's knocked my idea of starting with Varget & 175 SMKs, so I think that's a good sign.


Thanks again, I welcome all suggestions!

Dan

[luvmy45]

Nobody's knocked my idea of starting with Varget & 175 SMKs, so I think that's a good sign.

That's a great combination, so is RE15. 175 SMK's are hard to beat :-)

[J Mack]

I have the Forster F.L. Ultra die set with a Micro seater that I’ve been using and I’m very happy with the ammo that I’ve loaded with it.
I also have a Redding bushing style neck die and it’s a bit of a pain in the ass if you share brass and you're the one with a tight chamber.
Buy a small base F.L. die if you plan on having a tight/match chamber or you’re not concerned with working the brass, otherwise any F.L. die will work with your current chamber.

The guy’s at Grafs are very knowledgeable and helpful I’d give them a call.
WWW.grafs.com 800-531-2666   

[fj40mojo]

Another powder suggestion, Vit N540. It's expensive but I've seen JMack shoot some great groups at unbelievable velocities from his 18" .308 and Lapua brass.

[ida83704]

Here is what works for me
Rockchucker
Regular RCBS FL die set

Win Brass
CCI Large Rifle
45.0 Varget
175 SMK


getting 2690fps from a Rem700 with 26 inch tube
no pressure signs
shoots under 1moa if I do my thing
supersonic at Parma to nearly 1200yards in the summer
use .490 for the BC for the 175SMK

[RGinIdaho]

I'm eyeballing the Forster FL die/micrometer seating die set, planning on trying to adjust it to only bump the shoulder back without sizing the body too much.  Am I picturing this right, or do I need something else sizing wise?

Nobody's knocked my idea of starting with Varget & 175 SMKs, so I think that's a good sign.

Bumping the shoulder back has to be done with a FL die unless someone has something new out. To bump the shoulder, you will resize the case to standard die dimensions unless you go with a Small base die which tends to run a little smaller. Neck only does not bump the shoulder back. As JMack noted, if you are sharing brass or for some reason swapping handloads between rifles, neck sizing won't always work between guns. Of course swapping neck sized brass between guns would negate the whole idea behind neck sizing in the first place.


No one has knocked your Varget plan because it is a good plan. Varget is extremely insensitive to temperature. More so than any other powder that I have used. I get 5fps difference from 25deg to 90deg.

[J Mack]

As JMack noted, if you are sharing brass or for some reason swapping handloads between rifles, neck sizing won't always work between guns. Of course swapping neck sized brass between guns would negate the whole idea behind neck sizing in the first place.

I’ve loaded just over eighteen hundred 175gr SMK’s and a few hundred other bullets for just the .308 last year and at times when shooting with buddies I lost track of when I let someone shoot some of my rounds or picked up a peice of their brass and caused stuck cases in my rifle, this has me rethinking the benefits of neck sizing for me, I just don't spend the time sorting. If you’re the guy with the tight or match chamber and you shoot with guy’s that have factory or a loose chamber be aware when picking up brass!   

[danno12345]

Dang it Ida83704, I was all ready to press go on the Forster die set (backordered), and then you go and say regular dies are doing fine for you.

Grr..

I grabbed a set of Hornady dies before the new year, so I could get the 100 free bullets if I decided to keep them.  Should I just use these dies, or would it be worth it to go to the forsters?  I see you can add a micrometer stem to the Hornadys for ~25 bucks.  Would this be at all comparable?

 ~55 for a hornady micrometer & FL set or ~90 for the forster set.

Thanks again for all the response, I'm loving it.  I've got the Hornady headspace & COAL gauges coming.

Dan

[fj40mojo]

Dang it Ida83704, I was all ready to press go on the Forster die set (backordered), and then you go and say regular dies are doing fine for you.

Grr..

I grabbed a set of Hornady dies before the new year, so I could get the 100 free bullets if I decided to keep them.  Should I just use these dies, or would it be worth it to go to the forsters?  I see you can add a micrometer stem to the Hornadys for ~25 bucks.  Would this be at all comparable?

 ~55 for a hornady micrometer & FL set or ~90 for the forster set.

Thanks again for all the response, I'm loving it.  I've got the Hornady headspace & COAL gauges coming.

Dan

I'm using Hornadys with the Micrometer seater stem for my 6.5x55 Swede and getting sub 1/2MOA groups. Just be forewarned, I had headspace issues that were imparted because I followed the Mfgs instructions on setting the sizing die up. Make sure and measure your fired brass and adjust the sizer down incrementally until you achieve the shoulder bump you want. When set up per mfg's instructions I was gettinga .014" of shoulder bump which =excessive headspace, ruptured cases, etc, etc.

[Grumblecakes]

I got my 308 a few months ago and have been using RCBS FL and seating dies i also bought a lee neck die. I locked down the stem and i get almost no variation in OAL.

I've tried about 5 powders for 308 all but 1 with decent results:

I shoot 168 smk, in rp, pmc, and hornady brass. (gonna ask the wife to buy laupa brass for my b-day) and cci large rifle primers.

Benchmark = to fast for 308 didnt group well at all
RE 15= grouped well but changes in temperature opened groups up
H4064 = Shot about 30 rounds today, groups very well, but is temp sensitive as well.
H335 = was ok but didnt group as well as others
One i cant remember off hand, grouped well but wasn't consistent
Varget = Groups well and ive used it from 20 - 60 degrees so far without groups opening up.

[Nomad]

 Talk to Jmack a good source of information on shooting long range.....
 There are several good books on reloading for long range shooting.
 There is going to be some great long range shooters at Parma this weekend "Steelhead" is a good source
 for information like his RL- powders.....
  You may want to look at the new 8208 powder lots of great reviews on it....
 The Match director NG at the LRTR shoot has good information as well......
   

[birddog1989]

Varget = Groups well and ive used it from 20 - 60 degrees so far without groups opening up.

I've used it from -18F to 97F without the groups opening up.  For dies I use a RCBS neck sizer, a Redding Competition seating die and a Lee factory crimp die.

[Steve N]

I don't do the lrtr game anymore, except for my M-14 out to 800 yards, but I used regular RCBS everything to reload for my rifle when I was doing it. And the only thing that makes the difference is consistency. No matter what you do, do it the same way every time. Same case length, same primer, same powder, same die settings, same same same all the time. There are lots of ways of determining what you do and there are lots of ways to do it a lot cheaper than some of the suggestions above. And they are SUPERB suggestions. Just not the least expensive but just as good.

I consider dirt rat shooting precision shooting and I can take my 220 Swift and hit the little bugger 8 out of 10 times at 300 yards consistently. And I'm not doing anything fancy - just consistently. And that's 1/2 MOA accuracy by anyones standards.

New jug of powder? Recheck the load and make sure the MV is the same. Each jug is a bit different. Then right back to same same same -

[ida83704]

Dang it Ida83704, I was all ready to press go on the Forster die set (backordered), and then you go and say regular dies are doing fine for you.

Grr..

I grabbed a set of Hornady dies before the new year, so I could get the 100 free bullets if I decided to keep them.  Should I just use these dies, or would it be worth it to go to the forsters?  I see you can add a micrometer stem to the Hornadys for ~25 bucks.  Would this be at all comparable?
 ~55 for a hornady micrometer & FL set or ~90 for the forster set.
Thanks again for all the response, I'm loving it.  I've got the Hornady headspace & COAL gauges coming.
Dan

Can't answer that but here is what i do know...

With mt RCBS FL set...paid $30....
a half turn on the seeting stem is .020"
tightening the nut down on the stem is .029"(ask me how I know that)

Best group was with 45.0 Varget-less than 1 moa
next best was 44.0-moaish
next after that was 43.5- four shots were smallest, but a flyer screwed it

42.0, 42.5, 43.0, 44.5 did not group as well

[danno12345]

Alrighty then. 

It looks like I don't need to spend the extra cash at this point, so I'll stick with the Hornadys.  The difference will buy some more bullets...

When I get a load worked up, I'll come find a match and let you all tell me what I'm doing wrong.

Thanks again for all the responses, I do appreciate it.

I like reading, so I keep mining the internets, get lots of opinions & ideas running around in my head, it's good to get real-world experience from y'all to keep me in check.

SteveN, I think what you were saying is one of the most critical - do it all the same everytime. 

Time to get out & shoot!

Well.. when I get some time anyway.  I'm out of town next week, so won't get to play until I'm back.
Dan

[Grumblecakes]

When I did my loads I looked around online to see what "everyone" else was using as a reference. All were well under the max loads for the powders. I ended up using the as a starting point and worked out from there. My best loads all ended up in the same narrow range. This more or less fell in line with the ocw devlopement. Your mileage may vary.

[luvmy45]

You can play internet guru all day, but what really counts is what will your gun do with your load... what works for you, may not work for others, and what works for them may not work for you.

Until YOU shoot YOUR gun with YOUR load, it's all a opinion game.

Go shoot, have some fun, and learn from your gun and loads. Tomorrow is a LRTR shoot in parma, I'm looking foward to getting some good information about my gun, winter shooting, and my loads... and seeing how it compares for real with other guys that are shooting similar setups. If you have a chance come on out tomorrow and check it out, you can see what we are doing and maybe be ready for the next LRTR that we do.

Have fun and go pull the trigger!

[mjmcmahon]

Danno -

I've got a similar rifle (Savage 10FCP-HS) and my best groups came with RL-15 or IMR 8208XBR.  The inconsistencies between lots on Varget steered me away from that powder.