Topic: ok Spiff, what am i doing wrong? (44mag)

[Shortmag]

so i'm getting ready to load some 44mag loads up.  i have once fired factory winchester brass.  ran them throught the decapper/resizer, primed the brass and thought i was ready to go.  well when i went to set up the seater die, i set a bullet in the case mouth, and the bullet fell into the case!

made some adjustments according to the RCBS instructions and still got the same results.  so i ran the cases up into the crimp die to try and close the casemouth enough to hold the bullet.  but when i'd run them up the crimp die, it would just push the bullet down into the case. just the tip of the bullet sticking out.

am i forgetting something?

[Spiff]

Not sure SM, if your using a single stage press, are you setting the sizer die up so that the press cams over a little bit?

Did I give you those dies? I thought I gave you Lee dies?

[Jeff]

Are you sure you're using the right bullets?  Even after belling the case mouth the bullet shouldn't fall in the case.

[Shortmag]

Yes Spiff, these are the 4-die set of RCBS dies you gave me. checked twice and I'm not caming over.

and thoses other pieces of brass that you gave me spiff, will hold a bullet just fine.

my brass is not belled out like the one's you gave me however.

is one of these dies the "powder die" for screwing the powder measure onto? I wouldn't need that die as i am loading on a single stage, correct?

SM

[Spiff]

Are you sure you're using the right bullets?  Even after belling the case mouth the bullet shouldn't fall in the case.

Good point JS, are these lead bullets SM? Did they cast ok?

Make sure they don't say .45ACP on the box........................

[Spiff]

Yes Spiff, these are the 4-die set of RCBS dies you gave me. checked twice and I'm not caming over.

and thoses other pieces of brass that you gave me spiff, will hold a bullet just fine.

my brass is not belled out like the one's you gave me however.

is one of these dies the "powder die" for screwing the powder measure onto? I wouldn't need that die as i am loading on a single stage, correct?

SM

Matt, I don't remember what was included in the set. There may very well be a powder die. Especially if its a four die set. Sizer/crimping die, belling die, bullet seater and maybe a separate crimper die.

Is one of the dies a Lee die? If so it's probably one of their crimping dies (excellent dies BTW).

ETA: Set the sizing die up so that the press cams over just a bit. Try it that way.

[Shortmag]

so the only thing i noticed with the dies was that 3 of the dies say 44mg & sp on them whild the decapper/sizer die just says 44sp.  i'm pretty sure all of them are RCBS, but i'll check when i get home tonight.

the are packaged as 44 cal 240gr semi-jacketed hollow points.  (copper bases that come up the bullet about 1/2 or 2/3 and then a lead HP. i put a bullet on my scale and it was right at 241grains.  I'll mic the bullets to.

and the die that i was thinking was a powder die may be a "belling die" (i've never heard of one of these.)  it has threads at the top that i assumed were for a powder measure to screw into.

i'll tinker with it tonight and see what i come up with.

SM

[Spiff]

The belling die probably doubles as a powder die as you would bell and powder in the same step.

Let me double check tonight and make sure that I did not give you some odd, out of the ordinary die set. Though I'm almost positive that the dies I gave you are what I used.

[Shortmag]

ok, i think i got it figured out.  I went home lastnight and just started over.

the sizer and decapper are infact in the same die.  the other die with the threads must be the powder die.  i took the dies apart, made sure they were clean and then just started the sizer into the die.  then i would screw it in a little ways and run a shell up into the die.  then repeated that till i felt the sizer just barely hit the case mouth.  so i think i have it figured out.  i've got more brass in the tumbler that i'll try again tonight to be sure i've got it.  i tried running the oversized brass back through the sizer when i got it set but it's still to big so i guess i'm outta luck on those pieces of brass unless any of you have any ideas.

[Shortmag]

Maybe the expander plug actually belongs in the naked/powder die.

that's what i was thinking too, at first.  i tried to screw the decapper/sizer into that powder die, but the hole is smaller.

Some use an additional crimp so that they can seat and crimp in separate steps

yes, this set has what i'm sure is:

a sizer and decapper die
a powder die
a bullet seating die
a crimp die

If you pull the expander from the die, it should bea a two step arrangement. The lower part of the larger shaft has a larger taper near the top for belling.

yes, this is how mine is.  i don't know if it was just too far down when i started, (or not far enough) but the way mine is you'd think if it was too far down, you'd rip the case mouth wide open, it's quite a step.  but the brass that i had coming out of it was still straight walled all the way up, it was just too big.   


I'm hoping i've got it figured out.  i'll give it another go tonight and see what happens.
i'll bring the dies along tomorrow so you all can see them.

SM

[pv74]

If you have a four die set, you probably have separate seating and crimping dies.

Seat the bullet with the seater die, then put a heavy roll crimp with the crimping die.

My RCBS set is a 3 die set. Some Lee sets come with 4 dies IIRC.

I have a S&W 629 5"

I use 20.5 grains of 2400 (Elmer Kieth used this powder), CCI large pistol magnum primers and Magtech 240 grain jacketed softpoints for my open carry/hunting loads.

For a milder target load, I use 240 grain lead wadcutters and tight group...Easier on the wrist

[Spiff]

Shortmag, what did you find out? Everything ok?

[Shortmag]

Shortmag, what did you find out? Everything ok?

well I don't think so,

it looks as if the "powder" die is also the "sizing" (?) die. it has "F. L." on the top of it. however it does not bell the case mouth. the decapper die will deprime and "expand" (?) but the decapper insert in the die also has a "step" part way up that when set up right, will bell the case mouth. but that makes the brass belled, but oversized. so if i then run it through the "sizer" die, (which does infact have the carbide insert) it will size the brass down to where a bullet does not fall into the case, but it also un-bells the case mouth.  so i'm thinking i'm either missing a piece (spacer ring?) or still doing something wrong.

and on a couple of the loads i put together with the other brass you gave me, i got the bullets seated and crimped ok. but when i went to "make sure they were crimped" (pushing down on the bullet to make sure it's secure) the bullet slipped back into the case. so i'm thinking i'm gonna pull those rounds down and start over just to be safe.

I cannot screw the decapper into the "sizer" die, it has a threaded hole, but the decapper is to large to thread into it.

when i run the brass through the "decapper" die, it does so very easily and comes out over sized and a bullet just falls into the case. if i then take that same piece of brass and run it throgh the "sizing" die it will come out sized down to where a bullet will not fall into the case, but it is also not belled.

SM

[Spiff]

Matt, bring the dies tonight if your coming and let me look at them. I'm wondering if some of the parts have not been swapped around. Bring 'em tonight and let me look.

Also, crimp or no crimp you should not be able to easily push the bullet into the case. A crimp will not prevent setback if your intentionally trying to push the bullet in. The crimp on a .44 is there mainly to prevent setback or setout of the bullet during firing. It also makes sure the bell is removed from the case.

[Shortmag]

Size first, decap and expand second, just enough bell to start the bullet. Then primer, powder, seat and crimp.

that's what i was thinking, but the brass is still coming out of the decapper die oversized.

maybe it's just me.

i'll bring the dies along tonight, Spiff.

SM

[Spiff]

SM, how's it going with the dies?

[Shortmag]

well, i loaded 24 rounds lastnight.

I'm using the carbide sizer from your set so i don't have to lube, and then using Ralph's expander/decapper and seating/crimping dies to finish.



SM