Topic: Reloads or Factory Ammo for Self Defense

[Steve N]

This thread was part of a another thread "45 Loads" in Reloading, we drifted off topic and Luvmy45 has split the topic to keep it from drifting too far off of topic. This thread actually started in the middle of another thread. Thank you.

Yes on the self-defense - ...

[J Mack]

Now I have to ask... you reloading for self defense here? If so we may have to dredge up some previous post's on why that's a bad idea... hate to see someone get sunk by handloads in a court of law

(See http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=388901, posts 109 and 114). for some facts on the issue.

I'm not calling anyone out that prefers to use factory stuff for protection, just pointing out that there is another side to the argument.

[Steve N]

I have had this discussion with several folks. And all use of a firearm in self-defense puts one at risk. But I would much rather be alive to have that discussion that to have a post mortem examination of it.

So no offense to either side - 

[J Mack]

I have had this discussion with several folks. And all use of a firearm in self-defense puts one at risk. But I would much rather be alive to have that discussion that to have a post mortem examination of it.

So no offense to either side - 

And the law of averages in Idaho show that you will have no issues with hand loads in a justified self defense shooting. 

[luvmy45]

Let's play devils advocate for a moment...

All of the discussion I hear saying that handloads vs factory loads are just hearsay and opinion with no factual evidence. Or when factual evidence is purported, it is never backed up.

On the other hand, you have Massad Ayood, a noted expert that uses facts to back up his discussions that says you use hand loads vs factory loads and you are playing with fire.

Given that the odds of having to use a gun are rare, but the odds of a civil or criminal suit are approaching 100%, and that any chink in your self defense defense can be exploited, why would you not use factory ammo to nullify that argument.

It's a $20 box of ammo, is that really worth the very real potential of losing in court?

[mopeman440]

All good points about reloads and SD...but it is a personal choice when it comes down to it. My .45 load is 5 gr of Unique, mixed brass and right now Tula LP primers, I have used Magtec and CCI's in the past (yes I'm in the cheap primer camp).

[J Mack]

Let's play devils advocate for a moment...

All of the discussion I hear saying that handloads vs factory loads are just hearsay and opinion with no factual evidence. Or when factual evidence is purported, it is never backed up.

On the other hand, you have Massad Ayood, a noted expert that uses facts to back up his discussions that says you use hand loads vs factory loads and you are playing with fire.

Given that the odds of having to use a gun are rare, but the odds of a civil or criminal suit are approaching 100%, and that any chink in your self defense defense can be exploited, why would you not use factory ammo to nullify that argument.

It's a $20 box of ammo, is that really worth the very real potential of losing in court?

So if I purchase loaded ammo for its maximum destruction on human flesh from any reputable source this can not be used against me in a court of law, civil or criminal?

[Nealio]

I just wrote "Less Lethal" with a sharpie on my boxes of Double Tap 10mm...

[luvmy45]

So if I purchase loaded ammo for its maximum destruction on human flesh from any reputable source this can not be used against me in a court of law, civil or criminal?

That right there is the crazy Irony of using a Self Defense load that is designed for maximum destruction... I don't know why that is, but that is the precedence that has been set by court cases, according to Ayoob and his research and testimony in courts of law.

Let me say this, ammo is not the the only factor in determining the suit, that I have seen, it goes towards the entirety of the scope of the case.

That being the case, I choose to use factory ammo, for just such an occasion, that that would be one part of the case that they could not use as leverage.

In the end, my life is more important and I want to win that confrontation... but in today's world or civil suits, why not use what we know to our advantage...

This is what I know would happen in a self defense shooting:
1. I am guilty until proven innocent
2. I will lose my gun that I use and may never see it again.
3. I will be charge either Criminally or civially or both.
4. I will be poorer because of the out come.
5. I will be alive.

Number 5 trumps all the rest, but if I can figure out how to limit 1-4 before SHTF then why choose to do otherwise?

I I use the best, most destructive Self Defense load that reliably feeds out of my gun 

[agunforeachhand]

Good thread

[fj40mojo]

Considering the rarity of self defence shootings I'm not gonna sweat what's in the gun if the moment ever arrives for me. I'm gonna shoot first to save my skin and sort out the details later. I don't purposefully put myself in the situation, I generally carry with factory self defense ammo, but if reloads happen to be in the gun the bad guy is gonna get a taste.

[luvmy45]

Same boat here FJ... going to and from the range I usually have "range" ammo in the gun... it'll stop what ills ya, but is not factory ammo.

There is no hard/fast line that I follow, but generally speaking, carry gun gets the Factory Ammo... but I'm not going to stop and do an administrative reload to factory ammo if it's not in the gun. And I wouldn't think twice about using what's in the gun if the time came.

[Grumblecakes]

I prefer the factory loads. with the bit of reading ive done i don't think it will make a bit of difference in going to trial if your using hand loads or factory ammo.  The case by in the Massad Ayood article has alot of unique factors involved and i would not make the call against hand loads solely on the basis of that one example. I do however understand and agree with the conclusion that can be drawn from that article, factory loads are a know commodity, hand loads are not.

A caveat of this though would be i have all the tools to take my speer gold dots apart and 'modify' them. I've heard of people crimping them a little harder to avoid set back. Would crimping them qualify them as hand loads?

MY choice for factory ammo is based upon not giving someone in court something else to use against me.

I also wonder if those of you that compete could have that used against you? I mean you do practice different sd scenarios so it would seem that you have premeditated a shooting if it happens.

realistically in court anything is fair game. best option is to avoid it all together if possible.

[ballardw]

I've always sort of hoped that Cor-bon would re-label an ammo line as "Creampuffs". Then you have factory ammo with no "intend to kill or maim special ammo" for the prosecution to use.

[scoob]

realistically in court anything is fair game. best option is to avoid it all together if possible.

Amen!  Fortunately, simply living in Idaho (or -insert similar state-) is one step towards avoiding an SD scenario.  Not bomb-proof, as we're not immune to crime because of where we live.  But, we've lowered our chances of exposure.

Here's a past BS thread on this subject:  (Consider a thread-merge, mods?)
http://www.boiseshooters.com/index.php/topic,1883.0.html

"Creampuffs"  Now that's funny!   

[carharttfarmer]

your screwed either way you either "made" or "bought" deadly ammo

[Nealio]

From an interview with the guy who shot a man who he says threatened his life on a hiking trail in AZ (I'm not commenting on whether or not that was a justified shooting case or not):

The firearms investigator said that Fish’s gun — a 10mm — is more powerful than what police officers use and is not typically used for personal protection.  And the ammunition Fish used to shoot Kuenzli three times, called “a hollow-point bullet,” is made to expand when it enters the body.
When he decided to pull the trigger, the prosecutor said, Fish should have known what the consequences would be.

Lessler: Mr. Fish knew well what a hollow-point bullet does.
Larson: And the end product of his shooting is going to be death?
Lessler: Yes.


So its not just the ammo that people think is an issue, but the caliber of gun too......

[Jaggy13]

The argument I most often hear is a prosecutor will get you on the stand and make you out to be a "Gun Nut".
Modified pistol in any way, hand loaded ammo will be fuel to be used to paint a negative picture against you to your piers.
If I have ball ammo in my 1911, ammo that just meets power factor for example.

My opinion is that no matter the situation I am going to be painted as a "Gun Nut" just for having a gun to save my own life.
When giving the opportunity I suspect that my attorney would allow me to explain why I load my own ammo, and how its made to punch holes in paper not people. I doesn't take long to educate a normal person on the subject and I imagine enough time would be allowed to educate the average juror. It may even be the best defense I have for having said pistol. I am a target shooter, not a people shooter!
If I had been coming home from a softball game, I would have used a bat to defend myself.

If I loaded extra hot loads and made frag rounds, then I would expect that work against me if I shot a person with them.


For what it's worth, I carry factory ammo for cc.

[Momma Sheepdog]

The legal aspects aside, we sell ammo to a lot of LE. Everyone knows most of our pistol rounds are loaded into true once fired brass. We have had a number of officer's tell us that they have problems with name brand commercial ammunition. Lucky for us they keep coming back to buy from us.
There are a lot of people that reload for their personal use for target shooting, match shooting and personal carry on this forum. I would have to say most that do pay close attention to what they are doing knowing full well the results of an improperly loaded round. We have people that request that we make a load "zippier" or "spicier" if they are carrying for personal defense. We always keep our loads within spec, but there is a low and high end of those specs. We load for groups, then consider FPS. I feel just fine(as does Sheepdog 1) carrying our manufactured ammo.

[birddog1989]

I think it comes down to having a good lawyer more than ammo.  If he is worth having in a situation like this he will know how or know how to find a way to counter the other sides arguments in a way that the jury will understand what the real issues are.  This is a good resource.

http://www.forcescience.org/

[Grumblecakes]

Was gonna put this in my post and forgot. Ripped from wikipedia:

The ammunition was used by the gunman of the 1993 Long Island Railroad mass murder. In 1996 a lawsuit was subsequently filed by one of the victim's family members (McCarthy v. Sturm, Ruger and Co., Inc., 916 F.Supp. 366 (S.D.N.Y., 1996)) claiming that Olin Corp. should be liable for the shooting spree based on the design, manufacture, marketing, and sale of Black Talon ammunition. The claims against Olin were dismissed because it was held that the bullets were not defectively designed

Kinda illustrates the lengths some people will go through to get money. I would be willing to bet the Brady campaign or some other liberal gun control group sponsored that law suit

[kreativecid]

The thought of defending my loved ones' lives with my reloads scares me. 

[fj40mojo]

The thought of defending my loved ones' lives with my reloads scares me. 

I think it's time to take a close look at your reloading process I think.

[luvmy45]

I have no doubt my reloaded ammo would work for my self defense, in the last 5 years of reloading for my monthly matches I've only had issues with 3 not going bang... one was the primer loaded backwards... doh, should have caught that with a visual inspectiong, and the other 2 were high primers... fixed that in my reloading process.

The issue for me is not reliabilty, it's avoidablity of a potential leverage given to the other side in a shooting, should it happen... given the need though, I have no doubt that my reloads would work.