Topic: Boise Gun Show

[Nomad]

 Gun Show Nov 13 & 14 Fairgrounds 5610 Glenwood...
 Would like to split a table with some one......Nomad..

[WTF]

Sorry to Thread Jack here.

but i wanted to share something with you all, if any of you attended the Gun show today, you may have seen StarTargets had a table selling their exploding targets. on the table they had 8lb targets for sale at $40 a pop. but we got him down to $30 for each 8 pounder. so me and a friend bought 3 of the 8lb pounders.

Having worked with weights and measurements in the past. i noticed they felt a little on the "light" side.

so I whipped out my handy dandy "legal for Trade" digital scale from one of my old businesses and we proceeded to weight out the 8lb jugs,  they were 1.5 lbs short for combined weight. each jug only contained 5.98-6.0 lbs of AN, and 112-114 grams of the Aluminum Oxidizer. each jug weighed in at 147 grams.  so they are misrepresenting and shorting people in a big way by at least 2lbs of AN for each so called 8lb jug.

I'm thinking of going back tomorrow to confront the guy for shaving weight off the labeled "8lb product". just FYI guys. he is shorting everyone.

[Grumblecakes]

thats pretty fucked up and probably illegal in more than one way. ask him what hes doing with the extra AN and if home land security knows about it 

[WTF]

Just a quick follow up.

I went back to the Gun Show today to confront the Guy (Skip) running the Star Targets Table. I brought it to his attention that the 8lb jugs he was selling and clearly labeled as 8lbs in weight, were grossly underweight by 2lbs. he quickly apologized as I explained to him that all 3 of our jugs all weighed in at 6.5lbs total weight each. and jumped on his cell phone to call his rep/boss to explain the situation, but only got his mailbox. when I brought up the word Fraud, he became nervous, and I asked him what they were gonna do to correct this problem. his position as he explained it to me was, "he doesn't pack it, and that it comes from the company this way"

I asked him what he can do to correct this?, he blurts out, I sold them to you for $30 each. instead of the $40 normal price. I told him it doesn't matter what price he sold them to me for, the bottom line was he represented them as 8lb jugs. clearly misrepresenting the actual weight, he then offered me a free 4lb jug to make things good, I refused and told him we bought 3 x 8lb jugs, and each weighed in at 6lbs, effectively shaving us out of 6lbs of product, he agreed to giving me another 8lb 6lb jug to make up for the discrepancy.

after visiting the BS crew tables, I went over and talked to the Event organizers and informed them of the fraudulent weight issues at the star targets table, they seemed genuinely interested, and thanked me for bringing this to their attention. not sure if they are going to do anything. but I didn't like the fact he was still selling the 6lb jugs as 8lb jugs to other customers.

in a way I feel bad, and sorry for this guy, as he is only trying to make a living, but, when it comes to fraud and misrepresenting a products actual weight. I have issues with that, now if these jugs were a few ounces short, I would have chucked it up as a mistake on their end, but 2 lbs shy is hardly a mistake, and worth mentioning.

I sent StarTargets.com an email pointing out this egregious error. lord only knows how many people they have defrauded with these 8 pounders. opening themselves up to a potential class action lawsuit. rant off...

was I out of line?

now with that said. some of you may be wondering if the 1lb and 2-1/2 pounders are of the proper weight. I can confirm they are indeed of proper weight. as I have weighed them in the past, when purchased from Impact Guns and Cabelas.

Edit : out of curiosity, I decided to check how much those so called 8lb jugs can hold, turns they can only hold a maximum of 7lbs of the prillled AN to the top of the jug., if combine with the 112 grams of AL oxidizer powder, the max it can hold is 7.25lbs, there is no way anyone can fit 8lbs of this product in those Jugs.

[tgibson]

I'm in no way condoning what the guys is doing, but I guess my question is, "What do you get for the extra 2lbs?".  Is it a bigger explosion?  Can you mix it up in 8, or in this case, 6 1lb doses to get 6 explosions?  Can you (not YOU, but the consumer) tell the difference between a 6lb explosion and an 8lb explosion?
I guess, the other big question I have is, "What was the point of telling the event organizer?"  If your beef was with Star Targets, what did you think the organizer was going to do to make it right for you?
Again, not saying I agree with what the guy is doing, just curious about some of your comments.
Adios,
TG

[e11charlie]

I look at it like this.  I would think selling an explosive they have to account for every ounce of product to meet ATF regs. I say screw the ATF but that is beside the point. If they have been doing this for the sometime lets say a year.  Lets say they have sold 2000 of those jugs shorting each the customary two pounds.  That is 4000 pounds of product that is unaccounted for.  Sure no big deal until a trunk load of this stuff turns up in front of your office building.  I would say I doubt that would happen, but this day and age you have to question everything.   

[tgibson]

I look at it like this.  I would think selling an explosive they have to account for every ounce of product to meet ATF regs. I say screw the ATF but that is beside the point. If they have been doing this for the sometime lets say a year.  Lets say they have sold 2000 of those jugs shorting each the customary two pounds.  That is 4000 pounds of product that is unaccounted for.  Sure no big deal until a trunk load of this stuff turns up in front of your office building.  I would say I doubt that would happen, but this day and age you have to question everything.   

Excellent point.
Adios,
TG

[Jeff]

I'm all for "buyer beware" but if you know someone is defrauding people shouldn't you say something?  Especially if they did it to you and you know they are still doing it even though they know about it?

If I were the promoter I'd want to know so I make sure they do not return unless they get their shit together.

[popsgunner]

especially in this day and age where money is tight and even tough the product is a "fun" one, it is still a product for sale and the seller SHOULD be held to task, especially this stuff, beef jerky, okay whatever, combining product that explode, hell yes. Good job talking to them and hopefully will be taken to heart.
pops

[Bill, Idaho]

Unless things have changed in the last few weeks, technically it's not considered an explosive. (Why it isn't baffles me.) It is a binary chemical. I don't think it is even considered to be a "blasting agent". (By ATF standards)  That's why it can be bought at some local pawn shops, without any paperwork. If it was an explosive per se, you would need to sign a gaggle of forms, have placards on the vehicle it's going to be hauled in, million dollar liability,  etc.
  I was out at the G. Nourse range last summer and some guy was lighting them off with a .270.. I struck up a conversation with him, he said he bought it on the blvd in Caldwell at a pawn shop. I think the little store at Anderson's Corner (in between Parma and Nyssa) sells it too.

[WTF]

Can you (not YOU, but the consumer) tell the difference between a 6lb explosion and an 8lb explosion?

I've shot enough of this stuff to say Yes, I can tell the difference between a 6 and 8 lb boom.  

I guess, the other big question I have is, "What was the point of telling the event organizer?"  If your beef was with Star Targets, what did you think the organizer was going to do to make it right for you?

the event organizer didn't make it right for me. but the rep, or in this case "the company" was clearly committing fraud. and misrepresenting the true weight of the product they were selling. and I didn't want to see any more people getting ripped off, I hate thieves. and this is clearly a theft issue to me. I see things in black and white. so if any kind of unethical practices are occurring under my roof, I would want to know about it.



I had to press my case to the guy representing StarTargets to make things right.

[Nomad]

 Thanks for the post on on Star Targets......Did not buy from him..
 The only recourse is with BBB on this matter and share with others........

[popsgunner]

BBB is a waste of time, any Biz can BUY a a+ rating for the 500 per year, they have no weight for anything. Doing what has been done seems right to me anyhow, my son's friend bought a 4 lb'er and I called him to have his friend weigh it, so we'll see about that. Next gun show when he wonders why his sales SUCK ASS, we win. IMHO.
Pops

[WTF]

BBB is a waste of time, any Biz can BUY a a+ rating for the 500 per year, they have no weight for anything. Doing what has been done seems right to me anyhow, my son's friend bought a 4 lb'er and I called him to have his friend weigh it, so we'll see about that. Next gun show when he wonders why his sales SUCK ASS, we win. IMHO.
Pops

I bet that 4lb'er is gonna be shy on weight. those are the only ones I have never weighed.

[luvmy45]

If I were the promoter I'd want to know so I make sure they do not return unless they get their shit together.

I don't know this promoter... but all a promoter cares about is the vendor paying for the table, and the people paying to come in the door so that he covers his expenses and makes money, as long as he is not legally on the hook for something, he doesn't care.

Promoter are just about the lowest life form there is, most if not all that we deal with don't give a crap about anything but the money in their pocket.

Anyway, good job WTF in making Star Targets squirm and letting us know about it.

[tgibson]

I don't know this promoter... but all a promoter cares about is the vendor paying for the table, and the people paying to come in the door so that he covers his expenses and makes money, as long as he is not legally on the hook for something, he doesn't care.

Promoter are just about the lowest life form there is, most if not all that we deal with don't give a crap about anything but the money in their pocket.

Anyway, good job WTF in making Star Targets squirm and letting us know about it.

Boy isn't that the truth.  If you don't believe it, go as a vendor to SHOT sometime.  Last bill to haul in one pallet of stuff for us (about 50y) was $1400.  The entire thing took the driver about 10 minutes.
Adios,
TG

[Jeff]

I don't know this promoter... but all a promoter cares about is the vendor paying for the table, and the people paying to come in the door so that he covers his expenses and makes money, as long as he is not legally on the hook for something, he doesn't care.

Promoter are just about the lowest life form there is, most if not all that we deal with don't give a crap about anything but the money in their pocket.

Anyway, good job WTF in making Star Targets squirm and letting us know about it.

Promoters want people to pay to come through the door.  If it gets around that vendors are ripping people off the people won't come back.  The promoter makes far more money from the "door" than from the tables.  So, the promoter better care about it.

[WTF]

I've yet to receive a response from Startargets, and I doubt I will. we'll see.... i'll give them the benefit of a doubt, and the time to answer. but if they don't, I'll post this mislabeling issue in all the major gun forums, which will no doubt cause a shit storm for them.

I'll even make a video showing that these 8lb containers can hold no more than 7lbs when filled to the rim.

[WTF]

I got a reply from them, here is their response.

"XXXX,
thank you for your email and sorry it has taken so long to get back to you I've been out of service hunting. We try very hard to make our target weights accurate by adjusting the amount of powered AN. As we reorder ammonium nitrate the moisture levels are always different and that can alter the weight by as much as 20%  and my guess is that you received a target that did not get adjusted properly and we are very sorry for that. We however do not try to skimp on our target weights we fill to the level that makes it easy to mix. and will be adding some information to our package that informs the buyer that the target weight may vary a little because of the reasons listed above.

Sounds like BS to me I do know when AN exposed to the open air sucks up moisture content. but for it to off gas moisture content while sealed sounds sketchy as hell.

I think I am going to open one of them up, and expose it to the open air, just to see how much moisture it can hold and absorb, then re-weight it. and report back, I'll also forward this to a friend of mine, who is a chemical engineer to verify this, and exactly how much moisture weight it can hold.

the plot thickens....

Edit : They want me to call them, so they can explain this to me. told them no, I want our conversation documented.

[tgibson]

Sounds like he is making an effort to make it right with you?

Adios,
TG

[WTF]

Sounds like he is making an effort to make it right with you?

Adios,
TG

Sounds more like he is giving me an excuse. he hasn't done one thing to make it right with me, only the vendor at the show made things right with me. but it is still an issue that needs to be address. so consumers can see the value when making a bulk purchase.

[tgibson]

Sounds more like he is giving me an excuse. he hasn't done one thing to make it right with me, only the vendor at the show made things right with me. but it is still an issue that needs to be address. so consumers can see the value when making a bulk purchase.

OK.  That was just as much as a question as an observation.  Sorry.  I'm done with this.
Adios,
TG

[DCR]

Well, I didn't pay any attention to the exploding target vendors at the show; sorry to hear about your experience with them.

I had a ball at the show looking, buying, selling, and trading.  It all depends on what you're into, I guess, to determine whether it was a "good" show, and it had plenty of stuff I like for me to call it fun.  I just ignore what doesn't interest me.

Looking forward to the January show!

[WTF]

Sorry.  I'm done with this.
Adios,
TG

I never forced you into this thread, you posted your comments to defend them. I was merely calling them out on their Bullshit. and they got caught.

So I spoke with my buddy, here is what he had to say, he can explain it better than me, but it's basically like this.

Prilled AN contains 0.3-1.5% moisture content when manufactured, once you get past 1.5-2% moisture content the AN begins to clump up because it has an Anti-caking agent coating the Prilled AN Crystalline structure. once you hit 5% moisture content, or as this guy claims 20% moisture content loss, as stated in his reply to me, you have nothing but a 8lb Cold Pack. rendering it worthless as a reactive target.

He also explained to me that AN will not absorb moisture until relative humidity reaches 75%, and even then, it will only absorb about 2% of it as water/moisture weight, and cause it to start clumping.

So in conclusion, Justin is full of shit when telling me that Moisture content loss can be as much as 20% is not plausible. or it would be nothing but a large wet clumpy cold pack when packaged and weighed on the premises.



 

[e11charlie]

So how does it feel WTF?