Topic: Updated Tests: Fiocchi's 92gr 9mm EMB (Expanding Mono Block)

[Tomac]

Today I tried a highly unscientific expansion test of the Fiocchi 92gr EMB from one of my M&P9c's.
I will admit to being a little concerned about using such a light bullet out of the 9c's short bbl.
I used 3 1-gal water jugs in full contact, presenting 18" of medium (I thought 2 might be sufficient w/the 3rd for a margin of safety).
Fired a single shot from 10', impacting the center of the first jug. Surprisingly, all 3 jugs exploded w/the third showing an exit hole out the back (shucks and other comments!).
Having deliberately set up the jugs so line-of-travel was easy to determine I decided to hunt out a bit along the bullet's probable track to see if I could locate it.
I'd barely looked down into the mud when I found the expanded bullet just inches away from the third jug's location. Apparently the bullet had just enough energy to barely punch out the back of the third jug and no further.
Expansion was a full & classic mushroom measuring .64" at the widest w/full weight retention (the bullet is entirely copper & bronze).
I realize this test is highly unscientific under ideal conditions but still I find myself impressed w/the level of expansion & depth of penetration from a short bbl.
Tomac

Recovered bullet w/an unfired cartridge:

Recovered bullet, side view:

Recovered bullet, front view:

[agunforeachhand]

Was to good to see you out there today Tomac. I was very impressed with your test and the expansion of the bullet. Was very cool to see in person. Thanks

[Tomac]

Was to good to see you out there today Tomac. I was very impressed with your test and the expansion of the bullet. Was very cool to see in person. Thanks

Thank *you*. I look forward to testing the EMB in your fullsize S&W M&P to see how much difference the extra 1.15" of bbl length makes w/regards to expansion and penetration.
Time to start saving up more empty milk jugs!... 
Tomac

[J Mack]

Thank *you*. I look forward to testing the EMB in your fullsize S&W M&P to see how much difference the extra 1.15" of bbl length makes w/regards to expansion and penetration.
Time to start saving up more empty milk jugs!...  
Tomac

In my highly unscientific test I used 24 inches of wet phone books taped together and shot three shot groups.

I soaked the books overnight then tape them together as tight as I can with duct tape before shooting them, 24” of wet phone book has stopped every expanding bullet I’ve shot within its self giving to the ability to measure penetration rifle or pistol.

[fj40mojo]

In my highly unscientific test I used 24 inches of wet phone books taped together and shot three shot groups.

I soaked the books overnight then tape them together as tight as I can with duct tape before shooting them, 24” of wet phone book has stopped every expanding bullet I’ve shot within its self giving to the ability to measure penetration rifle or pistol.

Even the .50BMG?

[J Mack]

Even the .50BMG?

24” of wet phone book has stopped every expanding bullet I’ve shot within its self giving to the ability to measure penetration rifle or pistol.

I don't have any expanding bullets for a fifty!

[fj40mojo]

I don't have any expanding bullets for a fifty!

You've got to admit, it would be fun to test.

[agunforeachhand]

In my highly unscientific test I used 24 inches of wet phone books taped together and shot three shot groups.

I soaked the books overnight then tape them together as tight as I can with duct tape before shooting them, 24” of wet phone book has stopped every expanding bullet I’ve shot within its self giving to the ability to measure penetration rifle or pistol.

Somebody has way too much time on his hands

[J Mack]

Somebody has way too much time on his hands

You said it brother, and he’s quickly becoming the number one poster at Boise Shooters just behind the admin.
Oh wait that you…………..!!   

[agunforeachhand]

fj still has me beat

[fj40mojo]

fj still has me beat

Hmmm....haven't seen my name in the top 5 posters of the week yet. Oddly enough though, you've been #1 three weeks running. So, back on topic. Penetration, or was it expansion. 

[Tomac]

So, back on topic. Penetration, or was it expansion. 

Yes... 
Tomac

[agunforeachhand]

Hmmm....haven't seen my name in the top 5 posters of the week yet. Oddly enough though, you've been #1 three weeks running.:

He said top poster pecker wrecker not weekly top poster

Besides why are you gals so concerned looking at that stupid weekly poster thing that our fearless leader feels we need ??

[fj40mojo]

He said top poster pecker wrecker not weekly top poster

Besides why are you gals so concerned looking at that stupid weekly poster thing that our fearless leader feels we need ??

It helps me filter.

[luvmy45]

Tomac,

I've read that HP get clogged up by fabric and what not, and can fail to expand.

Next time out using the just, put some denim material in front of the jugs and see what the fabric does to the expansion properties of the bullet.

Just a thought, be interesting to see.

[9Shooter]

I've heard that too.  I think that's why the Hornady Critical Defense was originally made.  Interesting in the pic with the unfired round, the core comes almost to the point.  I wonder if that would help with penetration/early expansion similar to the polymer insert of the Hornady ammo.

[agunforeachhand]

Tomac, sorry I crapped in your thread.

I am looking forward to the new tests we try here in a couple weeks, if anyone would like to join us or has something they would like us to try then please let us know.

[fastfire]

I don't have any expanding bullets for a fifty!

I'll shoot a 750gr A-MAX at it.
One time I shot at dry phone books with AP's, I bullet exited the 6th book out the side of the book.

[luvmy45]

I've heard that too.  I think that's why the Hornady Critical Defense was originally made.  Interesting in the pic with the unfired round, the core comes almost to the point.  I wonder if that would help with penetration/early expansion similar to the polymer insert of the Hornady ammo.

I would love to try some Critical Defense ammo... know anyone that carry's it locally? I hate to mail order ammo just to try it out, would rather just pick it up locally.

[fj40mojo]

I would love to try some Critical Defense ammo... know anyone that carry's it locally? I hate to mail order ammo just to try it out, would rather just pick it up locally.

At the risk of being pummeled and ridiculed mercilessly by the masses....Cliff's got some.

[luvmy45]

No pummeling here... by the time I order it in, pay for shipping the price will probably be about the same as going down to cliffs and picking some up.

I've learned what to get there and what not too... powder and primers... probably not, Big Blue reloading equipment... you bet, same price as the catalog and he's got a ton in stock.

Thanks FJ

[agunforeachhand]

I would love to try some Critical Defense ammo... know anyone that carry's it locally? I hate to mail order ammo just to try it out, would rather just pick it up locally.

Anyone know the real difference between the XTP's and the critical defense? I shoot the XTP's and love them, I might have to try them out on a test.

Larry's in Nampa might have some BK, I can check it out tomorrow and find out if you would like me to? ( See I really can be nice )   I stop into Larry's quite abit so it would really be no problem. I am guessing you are looking for .45's?

[agunforeachhand]

BK, I just got off the phone with Larry's they have the XTP's and TAP's in .45auto, the XTP's are 18.99 and the TAP's are 18.95. If that helps you at all

[luvmy45]

I see the TAP's all the time, but the critical defense ammo has a polymer filling in the cavity of the HP that supposedly prevents clogging of bullet, therefore insuring expansion in any clothing. At least that's how it reads.

The XTP and TAP's don't have that, not that they are not good bullets, but the CD ammo seems to be a bird of a different feather altogether.

If Cliff's has them I'll be swinging by to grab some this week... don't think their open on Monday's though.

Thanks for checking guys...

[agunforeachhand]

I see the TAP's all the time, but the critical defense ammo has a polymer filling in the cavity of the HP that supposedly prevents clogging of bullet, therefore insuring expansion in any clothing. At least that's how it reads.

The XTP and TAP's don't have that, not that they are not good bullets, but the CD ammo seems to be a bird of a different feather altogether.

No thank you BK that was what I was wondering myself. The difference between the XTP's and CD. Hey if you stop in there see how much some .40sw or 9mm in the CD is if you don't mind.

[fj40mojo]

Cliff's has all three in stock. No I didn't ask the price....it pains me too much and I get a family discount.

[luvmy45]

Hey brother FJ, you want to pick some up for your family to try out. 

[Tomac]

Cliff's has all three in stock. No I didn't ask the price....it pains me too much and I get a family discount.

Does "all three in stock" include the Fiocchi EMB?... 
Tomac

[fj40mojo]

Does "all three in stock" include the Fiocchi EMB?... 
Tomac

No I was referring to Hornady CD .45ACP, .40S&W, and 9mm Luger. Sorry bro. They are closed now or I'd call on the Fiocchi for ya.

[Tomac]

No I was referring to Hornady CD .45ACP, .40S&W, and 9mm Luger. Sorry bro. They are closed now or I'd call on the Fiocchi for ya.

No problem, just curious (got plenty of the EMB for myself...  ). Thx!...
Tomac

[Tomac]

Just got back from the range, here are the results, all fired from 10' through 1 layer of lined leather and 2 layers of denim and correlate to how you see the bullets in the pic from left to right:
 
1) (Not shown) 3.6" bbl, EMB, bullet passed through leather, denim and all 4 jugs and was not recovered (I have no idea what happened here).
2) 3.6" bbl, EMB, this is the bullet from the first test last week, no leather or denim, Exp = .64", Pen = 18".
3) 3.6" bbl, Fiocchi 115gr XTP JHP, Exp = .52", Pen = 18".
4) 3.6" bbl, EMB, Exp = .69", Pen = 15".
5) 3.6" bbl, EMB, Exp = .74", Pen = 18".
6) 4.25" bbl, EMB, Exp = .65", Pen = 18".
7) 4.25" bbl, EMB, Exp = .70"*, Pen = 18". * = shed 2 petals in the 2nd jug.
 
 After the first unrecovered shot, following bullets penetrated wet leather/denim, I have no idea what effect if any it might have on expansion/penetration. Remarkably consistent penetration despite different bbl lengths or prescence/lack of leather/denim.
Also tested for comparison (but not shown):
8) Federal .40 180gr Hydra-Shok, 4" bbl, Exp = .61", Pen = 24".
9) Speer .40 155gr Gold Dot, 4" bbl, Exp = .61", Pen = 24".

Test setup:

Recovered bullets:


ETA: Here are some other 9mm water jug tests for comparison: http://stevespages.com/page8f9mmluger.html

[agunforeachhand]

Here is the gold dot

[attachment=1]


And the Federal Hydrashock

[attachment=2]

[agunforeachhand]

Thanks again tomac it was alot fun.

Also sorry my picture taking skills suck 

[luvmy45]

It would appear those bullets have a very consitient expansion property. Very Nice.

Thanks for sharing.

bk

[Tomac]

Thanks again tomac it was alot fun.
Also sorry my picture taking skills suck 

Agreed, had a great time (even if I did get wet from standing too close to the jugs! )! Thx for including the pics of your test bullets, I neglected to get photos of them while at the range.
Tomac

[danmalx]

Reminded me of this site www.theboxotruth.com

[Tomac]

Okay, here's a question for those better versed than I in fluid dynamics:
For such a lightweight bullet the EMB seems to achieve notable penetration w/very good expansion. Could this unexpected penetration be due in part to the EMB's bronze post possibly enhancing post-expansion hydrodynamics instead of presenting the typical entirely flat mushroom shape of more std JHP's?
Tomac

[Nealio]

Okay, here's a question for those better versed than I in fluid dynamics:
For such a lightweight bullet the EMB seems to achieve notable penetration w/very good expansion. Could this unexpected penetration be due in part to the EMB's bronze post possibly enhancing post-expansion hydrodynamics instead of presenting the typical entirely flat mushroom shape of more std JHP's?
Tomac

When I first saw those retrieved bullets, that is what I was thinking.  The post with peeling back petals makes me think they were addressing the issue of under penetrating 9mm bullets with a more streamlined design.  The copper petals (like the Barnes X Bullets) will expand, but keep their shape so they can do soft tissue damage, while the post enhances penetration. 
The final outcome looks like a 25 Auto wadcutter stuffed into an expanded .45 ACP hollowpoint...

[agunforeachhand]

tomac, I got some 124grain gdhp's to try out now

[Tomac]

tomac, I got some 124grain gdhp's to try out now

I'll start collecting more water jugs! 
Tomac

[agunforeachhand]

I'll start collecting more water jugs! 
Tomac

lol don't work at it to hard, I am sure I will end up with quite a few.

[Nomad]

 Great information thanks for sharing and the testing Tomac

[Tomac]

I found a guy down Texas way who hunts feral hogs w/9mm. I sent him a box of EMB, he's going to let me know how it performs w/regard to penetration, expansion, effectiveness, type of tissue/bone encountered and how he subjectively rates its effectiveness compared to other 9mm loads. Stay tuned!...
Tomac

[Nealio]

Tomac, where do you get these Fiocci EMBs?

[Tomac]

Tomac, where do you get these Fiocci EMBs?

http://palmettostatearmory.com/1205.php

Tomac