Boise Shooters
February 07, 2012, 02:45:15 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
 
  Home   Forum   Help Rules UNREAD Login Register  
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: ATF outrage...  (Read 396 times)
goodcomdeadcom
Trade Count: (0)
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 216


« on: September 04, 2010, 12:50:27 PM »

Greetings, and God bless.

Found this linked from Sipsey Street. As usual with these guys, the law, completely turned on it's head. Outrageous!

http://www.campaignforliberty.com/blog.php?view=38088
Logged

"Communism is the most painful path between capitalism and capitalism."
Boise Shooters
« on: September 04, 2010, 12:50:27 PM »

 Logged
Jeff
Bert the Turtle
Trade Count: (32)
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6321


Chance Favors the Prepared Mind.


WWW
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2010, 12:57:30 PM »

Yes, ATF were wrong to bring the citizen to trial.  But ultimately the blame rests on the people on the jury.  If the people find someone guilty does that mean the prosecutors are to blame?
Logged

Q: What was the most positive result of the "Cash for Clunkers" program?
A: It took 95% of the Obama bumper stickers off the road.
meinidaho
Trade Count: (0)
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 130


« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2010, 03:26:47 PM »

Typical entrapment and then confiscation.  Due to losing our ranch in Wyoming to the Farm Loan Administration in the '70s, I did a bunch of research.  What I found was sobering.  If you follow the ATF, FBI, FHA (now the FMHA), HUD, Dept of Health, Education and welfare, etc you find similar stories all over the nation.  Unlawful search based on anonymous informant, sometimes resulting in the death of the property owner, then confiscation of the property even if the person was not convicted.  See the story of the Scott paper company owner in California and how they killed them then confiscated his ranch as an example.

The problem is that all of these agencies are under the department of the treasury.  So the only redress is to go up the chain to sister departments - i.e. ask the FBI to investigate the ATF?  They won't do anything for you.  Your only option that is valid is to complain to congress.  You can imagine how beneficial that is ...

Call me a pessimist, but we have much more problems in this nation than what we hear on the news.

Logged
popsgunner
Trade Count: (9)
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1078


Rockin Glockin, yeah buddy !


« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2010, 07:42:13 PM »

wow.... Sad Tongue Lips Sealed Undecided
Logged
BadtzMaru
Trade Count: (0)
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 62



« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2010, 10:43:43 AM »

From what I've read on other sites, the seller knew or should have known it was a strawman sale - negotiated by one guy who didn't have ID, money passed to another who bought the gun and then gave it to the first guy, all in front of the seller's table.  Also, the seller was required to but did not go through a FFL for the sale (City of Austin law).  I have no way of verifying if this is actually what happened but if so, the seller is an idiot.  Selling guns at a show requires that one knows the rules and follows them - who can say how many agents are in that building watching for a screw-up.  That said, the illegals should be in prison with him - that's where I run into a problem.
Logged
Joey
Site Supporter
Trade Count: (6)
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 738



« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2010, 10:53:45 AM »

I'm with Pops on this!

WOW.....
Logged

My Views & Opinions in this forum are just that, My Views & Opinions.
Please don't think they are the Views or Opinions of the companies I work with or work for.
My Comments in this forum are just my .02 cents ;-)
SNAFU
Trade Count: (0)
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1066


Μολὼν λάβε!


« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2010, 02:39:38 PM »

Here's FoxNews report on this.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/09/09/texas-gun-dealer-gets-prison-sentence-selling-gun-illegal-immigrant-id-illegal/

Quote
Gun Dealer Gets Prison for Selling to Illegal Immigrant; Illegal 'Middle Man' Not Charged

By Diane Macedo

Published September 10, 2010| FoxNews.com


Gun rights advocates are up in arms that a Texas gun dealer was sentenced to six months in prison for selling a firearm to an illegal immigrant, but a "middle-man" who bought the gun for the immigrant -- and who was in the U.S. illegally himself, but had a valid driver's license -- was never arrested, charged or deported in the case.

Paul Copeland, 56, a Vietnam veteran, was sentenced to prison time and two years probation in federal court last week for selling a gun to an undocumented alien, Hipolito Aviles, at the Texas Gun Show in Austin in January.

But Aviles wasn't the man who handed Copeland the money for the gun. That man was Leonel Huerta Sr., who presented as identification the valid Texas driver's license he had obtained before his visa expired in 2007.

Copeland claimed he was presented with a valid driver's license and had no way of knowing that the man he was selling the gun to was an illegal immigrant, or that he intended to give the gun to another illegal immigrant.

Huerta, in a phone interview with Copeland's attorney that was included in court documents, said he showed Copeland his driver's license in order to purchase the gun, and it wasn't until he was leaving the building that he handed the gun to Aviles.

But agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives testified that Copeland should have known that Huerta was buying the gun for Aviles.

"Agents witnessed the Defendant (Copeland) negotiate a price for a handgun with Hipolito Aviles, who then handed cash to a second Hispanic male, who then handed Aviles' cash and his own identification to the defendant," the prosecution said in court documents.

"The Defendant in turn sold the firearm and handed it to the 'straw' purchaser, who then handed the firearm to Hipolito Aviles. The Defendant then instructed Mr. Aviles to hand the firearm back to the straw purchaser because he had 'bought' the firearm. Agents witnessed the straw purchaser hand the firearm back to Hipolito Aviles a short time later."

Aviles, the undocumented immigrant, was charged with possession of a firearm by a prohibited person, served a little over six months in prison and was deported on July 8, U.S. Attorney's Office spokesman Daryl Fields said.

But Huerta, the "middle man" who bought the gun for Aviles and also was in the country illegally, suffered no legal consequences in the case. He is believed to still be living in the country illegally.

"Instead of busting the illegal alien for buying, they bust the citizen for selling," said Paul Velte, founder of Peaceable Texans for Firearms Rights, a gun-owners rights advocacy group from Austin.

Copeland, in an interview with FoxNews.com, said he and several other witnesses, including Aviles and Huerta's son, who was present during the gun purchase, testified that the men never exchanged money in front of him. He said that throughout the purchase, he either talked with Huerta, who he says "spoke perfect English," or to the group in general, but never to Aviles directly.

"I never conversed with Hipolito at all," Copeland said. "The gentleman claims that he doesn't speak any English."


But one thing all sides agreed on is that Huerta, using a valid Texas driver's license, knowingly bought a gun for someone who was ineligible to buy one himself -- all the while knowing that he, too, was in the country illegally.

"SA [Special Agent] Jones interviewed Huerta, using an interpreter, and learned that he is also illegally in the United States and he showed SA Jones a work visa that expired in 2007," ATF wrote in its report of the incident. "SA Jones further interviewed Huerta and learned that he had just met Aviles for the first time at the gun show and he agreed to help Aviles purchase a gun because Aviles did not have proper identification."

But, unlike Aviles, Huerta was not arrested at the gun show that day. And though the report said he was "to be indicted," the ATF said he was never charged in the case.

"Apparently, Huerta was not charged because he was a witness," ATF spokeswoman Franceska Perot told FoxNews.com, adding that the bureau referred the case to U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement. ICE spokeswoman Gail Montenegro said there was no record of Huerta in ICE's system, indicating that there is no effort underway to deport him.

Perot said that, to her understanding, Huerta wasn't arrested at the gun show because agents there felt "he was just a go-between for Aviles." She said she couldn't say specifically why the decision was made not to prosecute him later, other than to say that situations like this happen all the time.

"It's a prosecutorial decision. They decide, are we going to get more time for this guy, for his part, or are we going to use him as a witness for someone else? So I guess that was their decision," she said.

Velte says that decision should "enrage all Americans."

"The illegal alien walks free, but the citizen gets convicted," he said. "The same government charged with controlling immigration is the one using illegal immigrants to attack its own citizens. Does this make any sense?"

When asked about Huerta, the U.S. Attorney's Office said, "we do not comment about our prosecutorial decision making process."

Attempts to contact Huerta were unsuccessful.

As for Copeland, Perot said he may not like the verdict in his case, but it was issued by a jury fair and square.

"He was found guilty by a jury, so if he feels like he was unfairly tried then there's an appeals process for that," she said.

Copeland says he intends to explore that process to the fullest.

"The appeal's being filed as we speak," he said.
Logged

America is at an awkward stage, it's too late to work within the system, and to early to shoot the bastards.
ballardw
Trade Count: (4)
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 428


« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2010, 02:05:20 PM »

I'm somewhat interested in  just how that jury was impaneled. Something like the prosecution challenging for cause anyone that knew anything about the ATF and/or strawman purchases.
Logged

All data is flawed, some just less so.
Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Copyright © 2010 BoiseShooters.com
Powered by SMF 1.1.16 | SMF © 2011, Simple Machines
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!


Google visited last this page February 01, 2012, 10:32:11 PM
SimplePortal 2.3.2 © 2008-2010, SimplePortal