Reloading for Gaming

[Jaggy13]

Its only a few dollars more to get the 4 die set, so I think I will. If I end up not needing it, then so be it.
I was able to load up 50 rounds of 9mm this evening. Going to bring them to Parma with me tomorrow and try and get some more test fires done. Hope to see some of you there!

On the recoil springs, I do appreciate what you are all saying.
While deciding what all I need for my caliber change on the loader, I'm looking at what load I will want to run as well as if I need to re-tune my pistol. Since I am reloading for gaming reasons I'm trying to find the balance between cost/performance.

[luvmy45]

Ok, thread drift complete, I'll start a new post under this topic. 

Here is my take on reloading for gaming, IDPA, USPSA, target shooting, etc... Non defensive training specific shooting, in other words.

Us a little powder as possible to launch said projectile into an acceptably accuarte target and given distance, and meet the power factor requirments

That way you maximize your powder usage, and get more shots for you money... which is kinda the whole point for reloading.

Take Titegroup as an example, I use it for 9mm and .45 almost identical loads at 4.0 and 4.2 gr for each repsectivly. They both meet the minimum power factors set for the games that I shoot. With a 1lb of Titegroup I can load over 1500 rounds of .45 and more of 9mm, and 8lb jug will last me over 13,000 rounds... Good return on investment.

With 147gr and 230gr bullets in each it's a soft shooting round that is pleasent and easy to shoot and is accurat out to at least 50 yards, and can hold A zone or Down 0's all day long in the shooting sports.

Bullets - If cost is the biggest factor, hard to beat lead cast bullets, order in bulk at least 1000 at a time, more if possible. I grew tired of the dirty bullets (litteraly my hands just get yucky, so I prefer plated bullets now, but the key is to order in bulk, group buy/club buy etc...

Brass - scrounge all you can at the range, pickup your own brass, pistol brass lasts a long, long time... look for once fired brass on sale, especially in pistol, brand really doesn't matter as long as you can reload it. I used mixed brass, if it's cracked I throw it out.

I am from the camp of Heavy and slow is the way to go... it's just what I am comfortable with, but the lighter/faster camp isn't wrong either, each shoots differently.

Anyway, just my thoughts, not right or wrong, just what they are.

[Niner]

Have to agree with BK.  Although I used to use Unique, for the past year I have been loading Titegroup in 9mm and 45 acp.  It sure goes a long way.  With 124gr 9mm and 230gr 45 acp I use the same 4.2 grains and never even have to change the powder measure settings.
I use the bulk Berry's plated bullets and the combination makes shooting pretty economical.  I have yet to get into the shooting sports as my kids always seem to have soccer or basketball games and boyscout / girlscout campouts on the weekends but I look forward to the day (someday) when their extracurricular activities slow down and I can try out IDPA or IPSC.  It sure sounds fun!

[RGinIdaho]

It isn't just a cost issue. Slow, cheap loads and successfull shooting could be the end result but not necessarily.

Using less powder of course saves money but there is a another reason faster powders have been used in disciplines that include rapid fire requirements.

This stuff goes way back. Yes, BI(before internet) and BI(before ipsc). 

Most folks only consider recoil energy when they think of recoil. Some notice muzzle flip or dip and work to control it. A load or recomendation from a long time shooter solves their problem but they really don't try to understand why. Faster powders and heavy bullets(by caliber) are used by many shooters to improve recoil control and sight tracking. Faster powders help control recoil impulse, recoil velocity and recoil energy.  Look at the formulae for recoil impulse, recoil velocity and even energy and you will see that powder weight plays a significant factor.

That being said, fast powder and heavy bullets have their caveats. It is not a new loader's game. Not that a new loader can't do it but probably shouldn't until they have developed some solid routines and a good understanding of the task. Faster powders burn faster and develop pressures very quickly. In many cases just a minor change in seating depths, bullet shank length, bullet diameter and the like can cause pressures to skyrocket without much warning. Take a look at most of the .40 kabooms; typically heavy bullet very fast powder major pf loads. The .40 is known for this issue in reloading/gaming circles. To the point that .40 major pf loads are typically loaded with powders from the mid range of the appropriate burn rate scale. 9mm can go there quickly as well. 9mm is a very small case and errors in seating depths, bullet setback and such cause pressures to escalate more rapidly. .45 not such an issue as either the 9mm or .40. Take a look at the case volume and the lower operating pressure of the combo. There is a lot more room for error. .45 tends to lend itself to a double charge a bit easier but that is a matter of technique or process.

I'm not downing fast powder + heavy bullets. I use the fastest powder on the market(.) for .45acp and titegroup for 9mm but I slow way down to WSF for .40 short and weak in major pf. I'm just saying that a new reloader should develop his processes and understanding of internal ballistics before he goes down the fast powder heavy bullet path. Get a handle on developing loads, setting up dies consistently, managing crimp, OAL, powder charging, inspection and firearm feeding issues prior to diving into specialty loading.

I believe that I remember you starting with Unique. That is a great place to start. A versitile powder in the mid range of small caliber pistol burn rates. Develop your loading technique and understanding of how it all works to produce loads that are purpose driven. Then dive into the specialty stuff.





Just think, springs are an issue that combines with all said above to alter the timing of your gun. Probably why Burkett preaches timing drills and recomends repeating them ad nauseum any time you alter a component in your load or gun. 

[Nealio]

Bullets - If cost is the biggest factor, hard to beat lead cast bullets, order in bulk at least 1000 at a time, more if possible. I grew tired of the dirty bullets (litteraly my hands just get yucky, so I prefer plated bullets now, but the key is to order in bulk, group buy/club buy etc

...

I am from the camp of Heavy and slow is the way to go... it's just what I am comfortable with, but the lighter/faster camp isn't wrong either, each shoots differently.

Personally I'd never even touch lead cast.  You can get plated for so little more (if any) that its a waste to shoot lead.  The group buys from Xtreme are putting prices very low for IMHO the best plated bullets on the market.
Along those same lines, I'm more of a lighter/faster guy.  Part of the reason is the bullets are less. The 9mm bullets I shoot were only $.057 each through the last group buy.  Another other reason is that I don't need to compensate for drop from 0-50 yards.  But like BK said, it all depends on your preferences.
One thing to note though, if you have a 2 loads with the same power factor (one with a light bullet and one with a heavy bullet), the one with the heavier bullet is going to have a harder time knocking over steel because it has less energy.  My 100gr 9mm loads have knocked over every popper I've shot, whereas I've seen several people in my squads at USPSA running 124gr bullets fail to knock over poppers with good hits.

[Nealio]

RG has some very good points.

I also try to choose a powder that performs well, shoots clean, but also takes up a good amount of case volume with the proper charge.
I swear every revolver KABOOM I've read about is some guy who double charged a round.  They were always using something faster like Green Dot or Bullseye, which then only filled the case to 25-30%.  If you double charge a round with that little powder, its harder to tell, since the powder is still below the rim.

For me I use PowerPistol in all my pistols (9mm, 10mm, .45).  It has good velocities, burns fairly clean, and the charge size is always more than 50% of the case volume.  I've double charged 9mm cases a few times on my Dillon 550B when trying to take the bulge out of the base of the case.  This causes the case to overflow since my PP loads in my 9mm are 70% case volume.  However I don't just rely on that.  When I cook a new load up, I take a case, weigh out the proper charge, and then sit it on the reloading press right next to where I seat the bullets so I can check to see if the cases have the same volume of powder.  Its a quick and dirty check to make sure you aren't way over your target powder charge.

 - Nealio

[YamaLink]

I'll toss in my 2 cents.

Lead is cheap but the ones I've used with WST or WSF are dirty. Even though the mfg said "we use a special coating, it's clean and doesnt' smoke." In as little as 200 rounds I'm getting gunk and crap all over the firearm.

What is "lead cheap" and almost 100% plated clean is moly coated bullets from the likes of Black Bullets International. I paid $175 for 3000 delivered. That's 5.8 cents per.

My favorite is from Montana Gold at $292 for 3750 124fmj delivered which is 7.8 cents per, so that's quite a bit more than the BBI if you shoot a ton.

Beware of "once fired" brass. I don't trust many of the sellers on gunbroker or other sites. How do I know they're not picking up range brass that was left behind.....after it was reloaded 10 times and about to split at the neck? I order once fired brass from reputable online retailers who flat out say "I acquired these from a police range or indoor range, and it's once fired. Promise." Doesn't mean 100% they are indeed once fired since cops reload too, but in this economy a less than truthful brass seller would be run out of business. Caveat emptor.

[Jaggy13]

RG, Thank you for the informative post!
I am very happy with my 9mm reloads so far.
I am using unique as recomended by many here.
Based on the guidance and wealth of information I received here, I thought I would ask about setting up for .45. I shot this weekend in parma and used my .45 because my mags have still not come in for the 9mm I have set up for comp. That being said the biggest thing I noticed was my delay to get back on target running a gov length Kimber. Recoil was manageable, but muzzle flip got the better of me on many occasions. If I am going to reload my own ammo, my primary goal is reliable/safe ammo! I've had some ftf's in reloads I have purchased before and thats just not acceptable in a timed event.
Next would be cost. If I can't afford to shoot it, I won't practice!
As I encounter other shooters/re-loaders I take in as much information as I can. I don't take it all as gospel, but after I hear a dozen people tell me unique for example is a great place for me to start for reasons A,B and C. Followed up by the Moderator of this forum recommending it, I'm going to do it!

Some of the other input I have received when I tell people what I am shooting .45 specifically. They give me their .02 on custom loads to reduce recoil ect...
I thought I would speak up and get some input from the members here that have proved to have sound information. Beyond that, I do love to learn and am really enjoying this. Do understand that at least for me, I have no problem what so ever running the same 230 gr loads I have been shooting all my life.

What is "lead cheap" and almost 100% plated clean is moly coated bullets from the likes of Black Bullets International. I paid $175 for 3000 delivered. That's 5.8 cents per.

My favorite is from Montana Gold at $292 for 3750 124fmj delivered which is 7.8 cents per, so that's quite a bit more than the BBI if you shoot a ton.

Black bullets almost seem to good to be true! That would hit the mark for price point I've been hoping to hit for both 9mm and .45!

I do have other pistols, any issues with these in 1911 or glock in both calibers?
ever since I was a kid and making the mistake of throwing lead .22 in my 10/22 and having to deal with the grime and gummed up action, I have avoided anything not jacketed.
Seems like the perfect price point, Thanks!

[Nealio]

Are Black Bullets "moly" coated, or is it just a a dry, proprietary coating like the Nosler "Lubalox" coating?  Molybdenum disulfide is a messy lubricant and tends to get on everything, and its not black. 
I hear a lot of people referring to any type of coating on a bullet as "moly" even though most companies are not using moly any more because they have found things that work better.

[Jaggy13]

Forgot to mention, power factor....
As my purpose is to load for comp, it would be silly for me to load up thousands of rounds that don't meet power factor....
This weekend I heard plenty of people talk about their "pet loads" to meet power factor. (9mm 124gr @ 900 fps for example)
I have shot IDPA but plan on playing around with USPSA and IPSEC or even a 3 gun.

[Nealio]

What is "lead cheap" and almost 100% plated clean is moly coated bullets from the likes of Black Bullets International. I paid $175 for 3000 delivered. That's 5.8 cents per.

My favorite is from Montana Gold at $292 for 3750 124fmj delivered which is 7.8 cents per, so that's quite a bit more than the BBI if you shoot a ton.

FYI the Xtreme group buy had 115gr 9mm for 5.9 cents and 124gr for 6.1 cents

[luvmy45]

I shot this weekend in parma and used my .45 because my mags have still not come in for the 9mm I have set up for comp. That being said the biggest thing I noticed was my delay to get back on target running a gov length Kimber. Recoil was manageable, but muzzle flip got the better of me on many occasions.

Grip is important, muzzle flip cannot be avoided, it can be timed, it can be reduced, but not avoided... embrace it. :-)

You want a good grip that allows your gun to track up and down consistently... preferably straight up and down, but a slight angle is fine as long as it is consistent. Go for about a 60/40 grip ratio between the hands, more in the weak hand than the strong hand as a starting point. Grip it like you would a hammer driving a nail, not a a death grip.

Then shoot bill drills, this is where you will learn the feel the timing of the gun, if it's dipping coming out of recoil that is a place you could play with springs (again this is more advanced reloading tuning of the gun)

Learn to watch that front sight, lift up out of the notch and set back down into it. Bill drills will help you do this.

My gun of choice is as you would guess a .45, also a Kimber Gov't model btw... :-) It has taken me years to find the spring, load, bullet that works well for me, and I'm probably not done yet experimenting with it. Toying with trying some 185's at a little higher speed to see if I get the same performance a slightly better cost, and I hear the recoil master guide rod is a nice addition as well.

I think this was the first IDPA match in parma I missed this year, so next time your out there, your more than welcome to try my gun and load to see what you think. It's a personal preference, so trying it out is always a good thing.

[YamaLink]

BBI has 115 rn for 5.7 each delivered.
No 124. Jumps to the 130.

Seems I got poly and moly confused. Sorry.

I'll do a little copy/paste from the bbi site at https://blackbulletsinternational.com/Home_Page.php:

Black Bullets International manufactures poly-coated bullets, applying a special proprietary tough "Poly-M" coating that encases the complete bullet.  This makes the bullets clean and accurate.  They are also uniform in weight and dimension.  

"Poly-M" bullets means the polished coating results in higher velocities, reduced barrel wear and a big reduction in lead fouling and smoke. Because of our "Poly-M" coating our bullets are safe to shoot indoors and your dies will remain clean during the reloading process.    

Are Black Bullets "moly" coated, or is it just a a dry, proprietary coating like the Nosler "Lubalox" coating?  Molybdenum disulfide is a messy lubricant and tends to get on everything, and its not black.  
I hear a lot of people referring to any type of coating on a bullet as "moly" even though most companies are not using moly any more because they have found things that work better.

[YamaLink]

Was not aware of this Xtreme group buy. More info, please.

Is it a sporadic/few times a year deal? I like BBI because I get my ammo in 3 days throughout the year no matter the qty even though the site says a week delay. Under promise and over deliver!

FYI the Xtreme group buy had 115gr 9mm for 5.9 cents and 124gr for 6.1 cents

[Nealio]

Was not aware of this Xtreme group buy. More info, please.

Is it a sporadic/few times a year deal? I like BBI because I get my ammo in 3 days throughout the year no matter the qty even though the site says a week delay. Under promise and over deliver!

Yeah mopeman440 has done a few, so they are whenever he decides to do them.  I'm hoping he does one soon because I need more bullets!

http://www.boiseshooters.com/index.php/topic,9877.0.html

[fj40mojo]

Yeah mopeman440 has done a few, so they are whenever he decides to do them.  I'm hoping he does one soon because I need more bullets!

http://www.boiseshooters.com/index.php/topic,9877.0.html

Me too, need some 9mm.